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Allegorical Verses Literal Interpretation Of Scripture

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Major, Dec 15, 2011.

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  1. Major

    Major Well-Known Member

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    "As I originally indicated I have no interest in chasing you through the convoluted "rabbit holes" of 70th Week theology. For me the theology fails at the first and most important test - it does not accord with the Word of God. It also refuses to acknowledge the realities of history."

    Yet here you are doing just that!!!
    NOPE! No 7 year peace treaty. It is yet future IMO. Check the list of signed/recognized peace treaties on the i-net and there is NOT one for the time frame you insist upon.

    But thanks for the info.
    #41
  2. Major

    Major Well-Known Member

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    But you see misty...........this is exactly what happens when you try to FORCE the Scriptures to say what you want them to say. When we do not have serious, in-depth Bible study, we will always come out with only part of the truth such as you just did. I know you mean well and you are working real hard to confirm your opinions and I commend you for your efforts. But let me go a little deeper into this for you.

    Daniel 9:24-32 (NKJV)

    24 “ Seventy weeks[are determined
    For your people and for your holy city,
    To finish the transgression,
    To make an end of sins,
    To make reconciliation for iniquity,
    To bring in everlasting righteousness,
    To seal up vision and prophecy,
    And to anoint the Most Holy."

    There it is right in front of you. Do you see it?????/

    "For your people and for your holy city". DO YOU SEE IT NOW???

    YOUR PEOPLE, YOUR HOLY CITY!

    Now lets confirm the "CONTEXT" Biblically shall we??/

    Daniel 9:20
    "Now while I was speaking, praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God".

    There it is. " THE SIN OF MY PEOPLE ISRAEL"
    You are absolutly correct in stateing that there are several things that verse 24 says. Actually there are 6:

    1. To finish the transgression.
    2. To make an end of sin.
    3. To make reconciliation for iniquity.
    4. To bring in everlasting righteousness.
    5. To seal up the vision and prophecy.
    6. To anoint the most Holy.

    Now the right explination is of course that these 6 things have to do with the Jews and their holy city of Jerusalem. The 70 weeks of Daniel have to do only with the Jews and not the church my dear friend. To take the promises God gave to Abraham and the Jews and apply them to the church is simply spiritual robbery.

    We know that the Lord Jesus Christ brought about reconciliation from iniquity for we read in Romans 5:6-10.........
    "For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

    But the atonement and reconciliation purchased by Jesus for the whole world, through His shed blood on the cross IS NOT IN VIEW HERE, for we read of the PUTTING AWAY or the FINISHING of the transgression and that refers to one distinct group of people THE JEWS.

    To this very day they are still cut off and the "wild olive brance" is still grafted in. The transgression of the Jew will not be finished until they as a nation repent and turn to God AND that my friend IS WHAT THE 7 YEAR TRIBULATION IS ALL ABOUT!!!! If you miss that........you have have missed the whole dadgummed thing.

    I reccomend you study Ex. 41 & 42 carefully. They describe the prophets vision of the temple and through it we can see that the "Shekinah" glory of the Lord has returned.
    Ezk. 43:1-6
    1 Afterward he brought me to the gate, the gate that faces toward the east. 2 And behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east. His voice was like the sound of many waters; and the earth shone with His glory. 3 It was like the appearance of the vision which I saw—like the vision which I saw when I[a] came to destroy the city. The visions were like the vision which I saw by the River Chebar; and I fell on my face. 4 And the glory of the LORD came into the temple by way of the gate which faces toward the east. 5 The Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the LORD filled the temple.
    6 Then I heard Him speaking to me from the temple, while a man stood beside me.

    From those Scriptures we see that when Jesu returns to this earth and the Millennial temple is built, "Shekinah" glory will return and anoint the most holy place. Thus we can clearly see that the time-space between the departure of Shekinah glory from the earth and its return to the earth is the duration of "the time of the Gentiles". The Shekinah glory of God has to do with God's covenant people WHEN THEY ARE IN THEIR RIGHTFUL POSITION HERE ON THIS EARTH!!!!

    Now having said that, I agree with you that we can all determine our own choices.
    #42
  3. Major

    Major Well-Known Member

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    Yout comment was...........
    " I permit no man to tell me what to believe but the Lord only and that is how it is meant to be",

    and that I also agree with 100%.!!!!
    #43
  4. th1bill

    th1bill Well-Known Member

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    It´s my position that that treaty is the seven year treaty on the table for Israel, right now Major. Statements that just floor me from the multitude are the ones where ¨everyone disagrees with you.¨ My Bible promises that if people like you and I follow God that we will be the losers... according to those headed to HELL! Major, you, I and God out number the world. I´ll proudly shake your hand when we get home.
    #44
  5. calvin

    calvin Well-Known Member

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    mistmann, I do not need to ponder these things you mention, because they are fundamental truths of the gospel that all disciples of Christ will of necessity embrace.
    One of my favorite passages that speak of the glories that you have mentioned above is Heb 12:22 Heb 12:23 Heb 12:24 Notice the tense here 'are come' or 'have come' depending on the translation used. This is not a future thing; it is right here and now for those who are believing, and has been so since the moment of their spiritual rebirth, since they turned to Christ for forgiveness of their sins.
    blessings,
    calvin
    #45
  6. mistmann

    mistmann Active Member

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    TrTrying to maintain a balance between useful contribution and useless debate so keeping my responses limited to important points those watching should consider. Hence I am not going point for point in this discussion. Just two observations I think I need to make here.

    The first is in quoting Ezekiel you are forgetting that Ezekiel was written BEFORE the construction of the SECOND temple. Indeed it contains the design of the SECOND temple. Jesus pointed out that a temple of stone and mortar are no longer necessary. WE are the temple of Christ. Jesus did not declare that a new temple will stand in the place of HEROD'S temole which may have a case for being a "third temple" as Herod totally rebuilt it without the Lord's approval. He indicated only that it would be destroyed and laid to waste totally. The next temple is the one in the New Jerusalem.

    The other point tha needs to be made is that ALL who are in Christ ARE Israel and inwardly Jews as Paul points out. As Paul also points out there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ for in Christ we are ALL one and ALL are by faith children of Abraham and children and heirs of the promise to him. Those Jews ( by flesh only) who do not come to Christ are the branches cut off from the vine and suffer the fate of all non-believers. To declare that in Christ we are DIVIDED between Jew and gentile believers is in direct contradiction to the scriptures.
    #46
  7. mistmann

    mistmann Active Member

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    Bless you too. You sure sound like a bro in Christ to me.
    #47
  8. Major

    Major Well-Known Member

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    NOPE!

    You are very, very wrong and that is the reason why you have to work so hard to make the Scriptures fit your opinions my dear friend.

    REPLACEMENT theology is wrong.

    SPIRITUALLY we all come to Christ the same way....by FAITH is Jesus Christ. In that way we are all spiritual Jews and we make up the church of God.

    But LITERALLY, there is still the nation of Israel which is lost and still rejecting Christ and God is not finished with the nation of Israel

    Romans 10:1
    Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

    Romans 11:1
    I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

    You say....
    The first is in quoting Ezekiel you are forgetting that Ezekiel was written BEFORE the construction of the SECOND temple.

    AGAIN you are wrong. I forgot nothing and I do not assume anything.
    #48
  9. Major

    Major Well-Known Member

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    Now I agree with this completely!!!
    #49
  10. Major

    Major Well-Known Member

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    Just trying to get out the Word of God Bill and allow men to accept or reject it.

    I truely believe that the people here on this site are born again and are sincere in what they are trying to say. We are all at different levels of understanding and I try to be careful not to reject others but to give another side of the story. I do that NOT to argue with anyone but to make sure that the younger Christian reading our stuff will be exposed to the real teaching of the Word of God.

    I too will be honored to see you AND our brothers in heaven. Want it be wonderful to sit in heaven with our brothers/sisters and laugh about how wrong we all were on some things and how silly our discussions were????
    #50
  11. mistmann

    mistmann Active Member

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    Strange that when I say it you disagree with it totally and yet when Calvin says the exact same thing you agree with it totally. A strange inconsistency but not the first time I have noticed such inconsistencies in your posts. I need say no more on it.
    #51
  12. mistmann

    mistmann Active Member

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    What has happened to your claim that the Bible must be understood literally? These passages cannot make it any clearer that there is no division between Jew and Greek (aka Gentile) in Christ. Such distinction has no meaning whatsoever to those who are in Christ.

    The Lord has spoken, I have no need to add any more to it.

    As To Ezekiel his prophetic ministry extended from B.C. 595 to B.C 573. The edict by King Cyrus to rebuild the temple (the second temple) was not made until about 536BC some 59 years after he began to prophesy and some 37 years after his prophetic ministry had ended. You cannot use Ezekiel's prophecies about the second temple as if it is prophecying a third temple. That is just misusing scripture. But I'll leave it for people to judge for themselves.
    #52
  13. mistmann

    mistmann Active Member

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    Sadly not all who THINK they are going to Heaven are going to Heaven.

    Matt 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    "Near enough is good enough" and "all roads lead to Rome" is not the recipe for ensuring your election. You cannot laugh in Heaven - if you are not in Heaven.

    Peter told us how to make our election sure:-

    2 Peter 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

    How can a disciple of Christ be satisfied with anything less than knowledge of the actual truth, (the actual reality)??

    John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
    #53
  14. Major

    Major Well-Known Member

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    I have no idea what you are trying to say.

    It seems as if you are saying you are not sure that you are saved. I hope I am wrong but Please take the time to do what Peter encourages us all to do my friend and MAKE SURE TODAY!
    #54
  15. Major

    Major Well-Known Member

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    You say that a lot..............."But I'll leave it for people to judge for themselves".

    As for Ezekiel's temple, you once again take what is said and spin it for your opinion.
    Because Israel was in a relationship with God through the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants, she had always been expected to worship the Lord in holiness. Her entire worship procedure was designed to point her to God's holiness and to her need to be holy before Him (cf. Lev). The basic emphasis throughout Ezekiel 40-48 is on God's holiness. The holiness of the Lord's temple and the worship of Him are contrasted with the profaning of His name and His temple in Israel's past worship. Israel would have a final opportunity to worship God correctly - in the purity of holiness. Such worship would demonstrate that Israel had truly been redeemed and cleansed.
    Ezekiel 40-48 presents only the Hebrew perspective of millennial worship. This does not preclude other worship forms from also existing and being carried out (cf. Luke 22:18). The manifestations and functions of all God's covenants do not contradict but rather complement one another. Therefore Israel will finally be a people of God, living and worshiping in the holiness revealed in the Mosaic stipulations. The omissions and modifications from the Mosaic system observed in Ezekiel 40-48 are undoubtedly present to enable the various aspects of the different covenants to harmonize.
    THE PURPOSE OF THE MILLENNIAL TEMPLE AND TEMPLE WORSHIP IS THE SAME AS THE OLD TESTAMENT TEMPLE AND WORSHIP
    One difficulty sensed by many is the need for and the purpose of a temple. Is not the presence of a temple anachronistic? However, the existence of a temple as a place of worship would be the normal concept from an OT perspective (cf. 2 Sam 7:12-16; 1 Kings 9:3; 2 Chron 6:14-7:16; 29:1-30:27; Ps 132). Likewise, without a temple complex sacrifices could not be offered properly. Therefore the temple would be necessary for worship (Ezek 43-46).
    Ezekiel sets forth two major purposes for the millennial temple. First, the temple will provide a throne for God among His people (43:6-7), the residency of His glory (43:1-12) from which He will rule over His people. Second the temple complex will reflect God's holiness by its walls of separation, various courts, and temple divisions (40:5; 42:14-20). The design of the structure will cause the people of that day to be ashamed of their iniquities....
    RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE MILLENNIAL TEMPLE SACRIFICIAL SYSTEM AND CHRIST'S FINISHED WORK ON THE CROSS
    A second major difficulty is the relationship between Ezekiel's sacrificial system and the NT teaching of Christ's death as a finished and complete work for sin....
    Most stated aspects of the worship procedure in Ezekiel are like those of the Mosaic system....
    It is important to observe that millennial sacrifices are discussed elsewhere in the OT prophets (Isa 56:5-7; 60:7, 13; 66:20-23; Jer 33:15-22; Zech 14:16-21). The concept is not unique to Ezekiel.
    The question whether these sacrifices are efficacious is crucial. It is important to remember that the Mosaic covenant was given to a people who had already entered into a relationship with the Lord in the Abrahamic covenant. The Mosaic covenant was not given to bring one into a relationship with God but to demonstrate how one in that relationship was to live holy before Him. True worship grows out of a personal relationship with God.
    #55
  16. mistmann

    mistmann Active Member

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    Rest assured Major that if I am preaching it you can be sure I am practicing it. But I think most here would have picked up the connection to post #50.

    Followers of Christ know how important it is to know what is true lest they teach and preach that which is false. They know that false teachers are not likely to be sitting around in Heaven laughing about how much they taught others that which is false.

    It is for certain that Paul thought it no laughing matter:-

    Ga 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

    A man who fears God is diligent to ensure that what he preaches and teaches to others is actually true and in accordance with the word of God AS IT IS WRITTEN.

    I was merely reminding those here of the solemn duty they have before the Lord to diligently ensure the truth of what they preach and teach to others.
    #56
  17. mistmann

    mistmann Active Member

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    Yes I do say it a lot. Probably because that is what we are meant to do. To test for OURSELVES the spirits to see if they are from the Lord or not. To judge for ourselves whether what any man says is in accordance with what the Lord Himself has written or not. Against the word of what man is the word of God rendered false?? I can think of no man who has greater authority than God Himself to declare what is true, that we should believe him over the written word of God.

    It is an odd comment to make. Do you have a problem with allowing and encouraging people to judge and test such matters against the written word of God for themselves??

    The dates I quoted are from official world history well established by archeologists and historians for centuries. Quoting the well established facts of reality is hardly a "spin". Ezekiel was written after the first Temple was destroyed and well BEFORE the second Temple was constructed. There was no Temple in existence at the time Ezekiel prophecied the SECOND Temple (not the third). But even the words of Ezekiel himself confirms the prophecy is about the second Temple not an illusory third Temple. We know this to be true because the Lord instructs Ezekiel to write out there before the people of Israel AT THAT TIME a full description of the Temple THEY are to build and the ordinances THEY are to keep. The prophecy of Ezekiel was for the Israelites of THAT TIME to fulfill, not some distant future "Israel". See here (Ezekiel 43:10-11) that the instructions of Ezekiel 40-48 were for the Israelites of the time of Ezekiel to fulfill, not some far off imagined "Third Temple period":-

    Eze 43:10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern. 11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

    Understand your argument is not against ME. These are facts of reality and the actual words of the Bible. Your argument is against the facts of reality and the written word of God Himself. Trying to discredit me is not going to change reality or the written word of God one iota. That is why I am happy for and encourage people to judge these things for themselves. I know full well what reality and the written word of God will declare to them.
    #57
  18. Major

    Major Well-Known Member

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    I am gald to hear that, because it did not read like that to me.

    And of course #50 was between myself and Bill in referrance to his comment #44 and you were not in my thoughts. I respect you but every thing is not about you.

    As for arguments with you............no my friend that is not the case. I posted the comments from Scripture and they are what they are.

    I do agree with your comment of.........."A man who fears God is diligent to ensure that what he preaches and teaches to others is actually true and in accordance with the word of God AS IT IS WRITTEN".

    That is why I have worked to get out the Word of God AS IT IS WRITTEN.

    Thank you for noticeing that effort!!!
    #58
  19. Major

    Major Well-Known Member

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    YES the Lord has spoken! YES, history proves His LITERAL words to be factual.

    Replacement theology teaches that the church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian church, not in Israel. So, the prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are “spiritualized” or “allegorized” into promises of God's blessing for the church. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God, and there is no future for the Jewish nation, how do we explain the supernatural survival of the Jewish people over the past 2000 years despite the many attempts to destroy them? How do we explain why and how Israel reappeared as a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1900 years?

    The view that Israel and the church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. Biblically speaking, the church is completely different and distinct from Israel, and the two are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the church is an entirely new creation that came into being on the day of Pentecost and will continue until it is taken to heaven at the rapture as we see in Eph. 1:9-11 & 1 Thess. 4:13-17. The church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel. The covenants, promises, and warnings are valid only for Israel. Israel has been temporarily set aside in God's program during these past 2000 years of dispersion.

    After the rapture, 1 Thess 4:13-17, God will restore Israel as the primary focus of His plan. The first event at this time is the tribulation (Revelation chapters 6-19). The world will be judged for rejecting Christ, while Israel is prepared through the trials of the great tribulation for the second coming of the Messiah. Then, when Christ does return to the earth, at the end of the tribulation, Israel will be ready to receive Him. The remnant of Israel which survives the tribulation will be saved, and the Lord will establish His kingdom on this earth with Jerusalem as its capital. With Christ reigning as King, Israel will be the leading nation, and representatives from all nations will come to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King—Jesus Christ. The church will return with Christ and will reign with Him for a literal thousand years Rev. 20:1-5.

    Now as for the order from Cyrus..........I do not know why you are fixated on it. I never arugued against Scripture or actual history. How stupid that would be for anyone to do. The whole point of the referrance was to draw attention to the resurrection of Israel Ezekiel 39 to the end of the book is future and Ezekiel is looking forward and sees the restoration of the people of Israel.

    I hope that helps our understanding.
    #59
  20. mistmann

    mistmann Active Member

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    I was quoting the words of GOD, not the words of "Replacement Theology".

    But I have drawn attention to the facts of reality and the words of the Lord. I can do no more than that. A man must choose for himself what and who he will and will not believe.

    Let our words stand, enough has been said for people to judge and test our words and seek the truth for themselves.

    Jesus teaches us there is a point at which we must move on. Just letting you know Major that I see no benefit to be had in my responding to these last posts and have chosen this point (it feels more like been led) to move on to other things.
    #60
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