Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by MMurphy, Jun 26, 2014.


What is your belief about Hell?

  1. Eternal Torment

    12 vote(s)
  2. Annihilation

    3 vote(s)
  3. Universal Salvation/Reconciliation

    1 vote(s)
  4. Other

    8 vote(s)
  1. Yes I agree but the notion that all someone needs is faith is misleading. The truth is that faith breeds good works and so IMO it is error to tell people good works don't play a part in salvation especially with the verse you posted that particularly teaches this.
    Huntingteckel likes this.
  2. It is not error my friend. It is 100% Biblical. ALL one needs to be saved is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    I agree, again, that the product of faith is good works. BUT that is only AFTER one comes to Christ for salvation by faith and only faith and not works so what you said is actually not the truth now is it. It is actually what you want it to be as a Judaizer, but it is not what the Bible tells us. A Judaizer is someone who is wanting to believe that Jesus Christ saves us and keeps us saved as long as we work and do good deeds and also keep the Law of God. You may have never considered yourself to be one of those, but the truth is in your own words right here in front of all of us.

    Works play no part in being saved or staying saved. It is totally faith in Christ plus NOTHING!

    The verse I posted says exactly the opposite of your comment. Ephesians 2:8-9 clearly tells us that salvation is totally of faith in Christ and NOT of ourselves. If we had any part of salvation, all we would do is brag about it to others.

    Just a few verses that confirm what I am saying............

    1. Eph. 2:8-9 -
    "For BY GRACE are ye SAVED THROUGH FAITH; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the GIFT of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast."

    2. Rom. 4:6-7 -
    God imputes "Righteousness without works."
    3. Rom. 10:3 -
    It's a grave mistake for anyone to try to, "Establish their own righteousness."
    4. Rom. 5:17 -
    Heaven deserving righteousness is a "GIFT," not something you earn.
    5. Rom. 5:18 -
    Justification to God is a "FREE GIFT," not something you work toward.
    6. Phil. 3:9 -
    Paul, as ‘good’ as he was, still wouldn't trust his "Own righteousness" to save him.
    7. Rom. 3:22 -
    God's righteousness is credited to "ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE," not all that work.
    8. Rom. 8:3-4 -
    The flesh is too "Weak" to save itself. We need a Saviour. We need Christ.
    9. Rom. 4:3 -
    Abraham's faith, not works, "Was counted unto him for righteousness."
    10. Rom. 4:4-5 - Works are "Not reckoned of grace, but of debt." Faith is counted as righteousness.
    Mitspa likes this.
  3. Ah, but then Christ's own words say right up there, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

    Do you disagree with Christ that it is only necessary to call on His name and not also to do the will of the Father?
    Huntingteckel likes this.
  4. This.
    I agree 100%. If you aren't doing good works then you should seriously question your salvation.
  5. It's all about faith. Specifically faith in the gospel. Faith that Christ was the ultimate sacrifice that paid the debt of ones sins. If a person truly believes this, then it will produce good works. It's not the good works that got you your salvation, it was believing in Christ, but because you now believe in Christ and what he did, if you truly believe it, and believe you are saved, how can one continue to not produce good works? You will now desire to produce good works not because of risk of going to hell, but because of your love for Christ. How can one truly have faith and believe, and be able to sin and it not affect them and make them want to repent?000
    Major and Heart_for_Christ say Amen and like this.
  6. What in the world are you talking about????

    In the verse you are speaking of confirms exactly what I have been saying to you.

    The context of Matt. 7:15-21 is about false prophets and you can tell who they are. The false prophet lies and steals the souls of men and never was saved to begin with. That is who Jesus is referring to and says THEY will not enter the kingdom because they did not keep the will of the Father. WHY???

    They were false prophets!!! Please do the work of study and stop distorting Scriptures to fit your thinking. Go ahead read the rest of those verses ......"And I will profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU, DEPART FROM ME YE WORKERS OF INIQUITY".

    He said that NOT because they did not do works and deeds.......THEY WERE NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH!

    (Yes I am yelling! Seems to be the only way to get some to listen).
    Mitspa likes this.
  7. Now my brother, isn't that exactly what I have been saying????????
    Mitspa and Where is the Messiah say Amen and like this.
  8. #368 MMurphy, Jul 18, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2014
    Major you are being extremely condescending to me just because I disagree with your line of thinking.
    Huntingteckel likes this.
  9. I don't know. I'd have to actually read the thread. Lol. But if that's what you were saying then amen!
    Major likes this.
  10. And another AMEN.
    Mitspa and Where is the Messiah say Amen and like this.
  11. He's always condescending.
  12. My dear brother. If you believe that I am condescending toward, I apologize to you, but This is not a day care center. I would encourage you to put on your big boy pants and realize that We all are here to learn, and grow and be complete Christians. At least I know I am.

    I do not care one way or another if you disagree with me. I am not your enemy. If you will read the Scripture I posted and do some homework and study, you will find that what you consider condescending just might be "conviction" that you are wrong and the Scripture are right. THINK ABOUT IT!
    Mitspa and KingJ say Amen and like this.
  13. It is and I say AMEN to you comment!
    Where is the Messiah likes this.
  14. The implication of saying that the passage only applies to prophets, and in any case I believe all Christians are called to prophecy in some capacity, would mean that one need not do the will of the Father to enter heaven, and is that not dangerously misleading to say to someone that answering God's calling is just 'optional'?
    Huntingteckel likes this.
  15. #375 Major, Jul 19, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2014
    NOPE!.....It is false and misleading to imply that we have to do anything to be saved. It is misleading to say that we must do the will of the Father to enter heaven. I say once again....
    salvation is a gift of God just so that we would not brag about it. We can not and do not work to get it.

    Mr MMurphy. You say I am misleading when I say that the passage was directed to prophets. Lets get it right shall we. I said FALSE PROPHETS!!!

    Here my brother is the complete passage..........................
    Matthew 7:15-29English Standard Version (ESV)
    15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.


    21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ Jesus misleading all of us or is it just me that you reject???? I said and commented exactly what Jesus Said my brother and I do not believe He ever misled anyone and neither do I. Do I make mistakes. Yes I do, just like you and everyone else. But mislead takes on an idea of "Purpose", and that is what I resent!

    Do you think that myself and others like me sit in front of a computer just to mislead honest good people into some kind of lie??????

    Now, What is the will of God Mr. MMurphy??? Is it the same for everyone or does it differ from one to another. There is ONE correct answer by the way. So, what is the WILL OF GOD?????

    I suggest that you stop trying to implicate me in some kind of false teaching or error and discuss with me the glorious gospel of the Lord Jesus. All you are going to get with bantering with me is one Bible verse after another my dear brother. You seem to think I am the enemy here and I can assure you that I am not.

    I would add that all Christians are NOT called to the prophetic word. The truth is that Biblically speaking there are "teachers" today but there are NO prophets. The word "to prophecy" in the New Test. means to "teach". We have the total, completed Word of God in the Bible, therefore prophets are not needed today.

    Before you argue that comment, please read, pray about and study 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 and you will see clearly what I am saying.

    1 Cor. 13:8-10 (ESV)........
    "Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.

    When you study that, and I hope everyone will find that it is meant in the Greek as "mature". It is neuter in the Greek which I believe means it refers to something and not someone. Only two things are perfect. The Lord Jesus Christ and the Word Of God.

    So then what we have my friend is clear directions that eventually man will out grow the need for the certain things which are associated with immaturity in verse #8. Those things were tongues, prophecy, special word of knowledge.

    Please folks......don't attack the messenger! Read the passage for yourselves. Work on it. Look up what Bible commentators and scholars say about it. Google it and do the homework!
    Mitspa likes this.
  16. Sola Fide (faith alone) is a Protestant dogma invented 1500 years after Christ. I believe the Bible teaches that, while faith in Christ confers grace, faith also confers good works. It is not that good works 'save' you it is that good works ratify your salvation (prove, demonstrate etc.)

    What you are saying is that one must only call on the name of the Lord to be saved, and thus you disparage what Christ Himself says in Mathew 25:31-46 notice He says nothing about faith, only works. Because those who do not do good works do not know God.
    Huntingteckel likes this.
  17. #377 Major, Jul 20, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2014
    No my friend, I am not saying as you put it..........
    "What you are saying is that one must only call on the name of the Lord to be saved".

    Acts 16:30-31......
    "And brought them out and said, SIRS, WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED?

    Now do you believe and accept that as the truth of God's Word???????

    Then how about Romans 10:9 my friend.......
    "That if thou shalt confess with thou moth and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ .......thou sall be saved".

    See.......your problem is NOT WITH ME but with the Word of God.

    Again I say to you that I am not your enemy. The Bible itself tells us exactly what you are saying I said. Please read and study Acts
    Matthew 25:31-46English Standard Version (ESV)
    This is The Final Judgment!!!!

    31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[a] you did it to me.’
    41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

    As I have said to you before......please do the homework and study to show yourself approved, a workman for truth.

    You have taken a passage of Scripture and tried to make it fit your idea of what truth is. You have failed in this and I am not condescending in that comment simply saying that your attempt was wrong in that you used verses that do not apply to what you think.

    The verses describe the judgment of all nations that have lived through the Tribulation period. This is after Armageddon and have no implication to us today. These people in view accepted Jesus as Saviour and DID NOT TAKE THE MARK OF THE BEAST during the 7 year Tribulation period. They are the saved out of that dispensation and will go into the Millennial Kingdom of God on the earth.

    The basis of their acceptance is also on how they treated the "least of my brethren".

    The acts of kindness do not represent salvation for them apart from their FAITH in Christ. Faith in Christ is the first thing they had to do. Second was to refuse the Mark of the beast and then being kind to others during that time frame.

    This is yet FUTURE and does not apply to men today.

    This eternal judgment is in keeping with Rev. 14:11, & 19:15. NO unsaved person is allowed into the millennial Kingdom. ALL will be saved by faith in Christ and then during those 7 last years they will be friends and help those who have come to Christ and refused the Mark of the Beast.

    Do the work! Study all the Scriptures for proper context and NOT what you want to make work.
    Mitspa likes this.
  18. In the Old Testament we find faithful Jacob resides in Sheol.

    That would have been the abode that Yeshua would have spoken of prior to the Catholic idea of fire and brimstone.
    Sheol is also referred to in the judgment of nations.

  19. Again my question Mr. MMurphy........What is the will of God?
  20. Major it is completely without basis for you to accuse me of using scripture to fit my own theology. I apply to the theological ideas of many important theologians throughout history, particularly maximos the confessor, but also others in eastern and western tradition who knew more about scripture than you.

    Now its true I haven't been to seminary, but the mere fact that you know the bible better than I does not make you right. The theological understanding that I am submitting here is held by the majority of Christendom, and I don't think you realize that you yourself are applying to the understanding of Luther. It would therefore be wise for you to take into consideration that you and Luther may not be infallible and that the majority of Christians have insights that you don't.

    There is nothing unbiblical about the notion that good faith breeds good works without exception. Nor is there anything contrary to the notion that works play a role in salvation, else people would expect salvation without making changes in their life. Look at the list of people that Paul says will not enter the Kingdom. It is saying that works play a role in salvation.

    Now then if you say those scriptures do not apply to us now, is it acceptable to say that the wicked who die today do not go into everlasting punishment? Or are you cherry picking your scripture?

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