Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by Noblemen, Jan 15, 2016.
Thank you for your responses.
In Christ Jesus
What I find interesting is that the rich man believed Abraham had the power to send Lazarus back to the living. This I don't believe is true but used against the Pharisees. So this is why I lean toward this being a parable.
It matters quite a lot if its a parable or not.
I think the question really is why do people find it so objectionable to have hell so described. Because at root that is waht the problem is .
and in reply I would say is that those who do find it so dont really understand the nature of sin or the consequences of it .
I agree Gerald. You missed my point. IT IS IMPORTANT to understand that Luke 16 is not a parable.........BUT, even if it was, my point was, what difference would it make???? It is the Word of God just as is the story of the Red Sea parting and a talking jack ass. Why would we want to say it is less than those things is beyond me. If they were real why would Luke 16 be any different is what I wanted to get across.
Moose, first of all, I would point out that Jesus teaches in Luke 16 that heaven and hell are both real, literal places. Sadly, many preachers shy away from uncomfortable topics such as hell. The question must still be......even if it is a parable, is it any less of a truthful teaching?
Christ spoke about hell a great deal, as did Paul, Peter, John, Jude, and the writer of Hebrews. The Bible is clear that every person who has ever lived will spend eternity in either heaven or hell. Like the rich man in the story, multitudes today are complacent in their conviction that all is well with their soul, and many will hear our Savior tell them otherwise when they die.
This story also shows us that once we cross the doorway of death, that’s it. There are no more chances. IMO, the important thing that Jesus is teaching all of us is that the transition to our eternal state takes place the moment we die. When believers die, they are immediately in the conscious fellowship and joys of heaven. When unbelievers die, they are just as immediately in the conscious pain, suffering, and torment of hell.
Unfortunately, there many these days who buy into the “prosperity gospel,” the rich man wrongly saw his material riches as evidence of God’s love and blessing. Likewise, he believed the poor and destitute, like Lazarus, were cursed by God. Yet, as the apostle James exhorted, “You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter” (James 5:5).
Lazarus and the rich man tells us four things. (1) Praying to a person already physically dead will not help our present condition, unless his name is Jesus Christ. (2) Someone coming back from the dead will not convince anyone as Jesus already proved that himself when he rose from the dead in his physical body, and it did not change any of the religious leaders beliefs of his day. (3) People in Heaven know what is going on earth with out having to be here. Those in hell can see those in the Kingdom of God. (4) After physical death you can not change your position of were you will spend eternity.
Luke 13:27.. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Luke 13:28.. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
It is a parable because it is a story Jesus tells that illustrates a simple spiritual lesson, and it is the fifth in a series of five parables:
The lost sheep - Luke 15:3-7
The lost coin - Luke 15:8-10
The lost boy - Luke 15:11-32
The unjust rich man - Luke 16:1-15
The rich man and Lazarus - Luke 16:19-31.
The message of the parable?
First, we learn that it is in this temporal, physical life that we make eternal decisions that are irrevocable.
Second, we learn about the fate of those who place their dependence on the value of possessions and wealth, contrasted against those who place their dependence on Jesus Christ for salvation and for needs met. The former eventually discover that their destiny is a state far worse than the poorest and most afflicted who trusts God.
Agrred to all!
I can not agree. However, whether it is or not does not take anything away from the truths that is found there in.
My point and that of many others is that Jesus NEVER mentioned LITERAL names or places when speaking in parables--it was always "a certain man" or "a far country." In sharp contrast, we have in Luke 16 definitive, distinctive, recognizable people mentioned in Luke 16:18-31; namely, Abraham, Lazarus, Moses, the prophets, and the dead.
Thus, it would be certainly unscholarly not to accept this account as 100% true which is my point. Some people try to allege that Luke 16:18-31 is not a true story BECAUSE it is a parable is to accuse the Lord of lying, because He is using LITERAL names, and thus attributing meaning and character references to those people.
IMO opinion it is a trap to deny the literalness of the Scriptures. Scientifically, historically, astronomically, archeologically, horticulturally, medically, and in so many other ways--the Word of God is 100% accurate and literal.
That is MY point not withstanding whether it is a parable or not IT IS still the Word of God.
The story of the Rich man and Lazarus is not a parable, I agree: for the Lord does not tell us it is so; it is a continuation of the lesson that He is giving the Pharisees. He has just denied their inconsistencies in regard to the law concerning marriage (v.18), and then follows straight away to speak of 'a rich man' clothed in purple and fine linen, which is descriptive of the role that the Pharisees had taken to themselves of both, 'rulers' and 'priests', purple being the colour worn by Kings and fine linen by the priests. The story then proceeds to expose their teachings.
* In saying this, no injustice is done to our Lord: no accusation of lying is latent within it: it is simply taking it as it stands, in the light of the testimony of all Scripture. For, the Lord would not deny the testimony of Scripture, and in order for this to be a story based on fact, it would indeed do so. The Pharisees made the word of God of none effect by their traditions, the Lord Jesus Christ exposes this.
'Thus saith the LORD,
"Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom,
neither let the mighty man glory in his might,
let not the rich man glory in his riches:
But let him that glorieth glory in this,
that he understandeth and knoweth Me,
that I am the LORD
which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness,
in the earth:
for in these things I delight,"
saith the LORD.'
May His Name be praised!
In Christ Jesus
Our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Jesus never named the righteous man. Names don't cinch it that it is not a parable.
Just the known fact that no one has been cast into the fires of hell yet, by virtue of the fact that Judgment Day has yet to occur, should be enough to understand that it is a parable.
Literalness is not compromised by any parable...in fact, it is demonstrated.
Because accepting it as a parable (as some will do)will not only diminish the teaching of the Lord but also make it a likeness to what?
and of course will some think excuse them from speaking the truth of it before the world .
and indeed to Gods people.
Because while most if not all parables concern the Kingdom of God. Hell is the first consequence of a life at emnity with God unrepented of.
The parting of the red sea was a geographical and historical event .
So was the Garden of Eden and all that occurred in that place.
The talking ass to Baalam was also a real and accurate recorded event .
Which if we allow the world the flesh and the devil to explain them all away or make into 'parables' while not changing the truth does change those who do so for the worst.
The Word of God which we call the Holy Bible is of God ,inspired of God and is Gods record of events and how he sees them .
Faith is not blind but sees and understands things as it were afar of and we act accordingly .
Afar off; being past present and future.
A wrong understanding of scripture ,dislocated truth , misinterpretated truth and missapplied truth will all in direct proportion effect our lives accordingly and hinder , blunt, and stop any faith in God .For faith in God comes not just by hearing but by understanding the Word of God.
In this case to call it a parable which is "like unto" that used the natural to convey spiritual truths when they were applied correctly . When the Lord is speaking about a spiritual reality will and does simply lead to confusion if not straight away(does it ever?) but over time as scripture is more and more disjointed.
If you take the phrase the Word of God and "man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceedeth form the mouth of God "
It should be understood that the very nature of words is that they are expressions of thought .
That while the thought might be hidden and unknown by words we express them and to understand the thought expressed each word in its right order and unfolding construct has to be heard from beginning to end to understand what is being said.
If that applies to men how much the more does it apply to God?Who in sundry times and in divers ways spake to us by the prophets who hath in these last days spoken to us by His Son"
Prophets we know can only speak in part .
For one thing they were not "made perfect" without us . But God all the more willing to speak to us perfectly needed the perfect man to express Himself to us perfectly.
Jesus was not a messenger who carried the message he was the message . That for 4000 years God had spoken on in parts one word at a time so to speak. Even in the Garden of Eden. Where he is first mentioned.
How much the more then do we need to take more earnest head to what He said?
"Just the known fact that no one has been cast into the fires of hell yet".
Now, Biblically speaking that just is not true is it sister. You are giving YOUR personal opinion and not Bible exegesis.
That depends entirely how one understands the written Word of God doesn't it my sister. That right there is the reason on my insistence on the LITERAL interpretation of God's Word.
"And in HELL he lift up his eyes, being in TORMENTS, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I AM RORMENTED IN THIS FLAME."
There it is in RED and white. It is either true, the written Word of God or it is not true and is a false teaching whether it be a parable or literal.
Judgment day will in no way change the position or location of anyone in hell/torments today. The only change will be in the name by which it is called. It is hell today and after the Great White Throne Judgment of the wicked lost it will be the "Lake Of Fire".
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and HELL delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
OOOPs.....there it is!
I appreciate your comments and I do understand where you are coming from, I just do not agree with your conclusion.
I believe that this account is a true record of real history of these two men. Yes, it is used much like a parable in that it teaches a particular lesson to emphasize a great principle. It has been taught over the years just as you have stated about the Pharisees but the bottom line is that Jesus would not have divulged such great truths to unbelieving men.
Again, it is Biblically true that parables are hypothetical illustrations and never name specific people. Luke 16 names "Lazarus". "Abraham" and "Moses".
Harry Ironsides noted in his writings on Luke 16 ........"Was there or was there not? Jesus is saying that there WAS".
Then Luke himself does not call this a parable as he does in the 13 other clear cases he writes about.
Then, Hell is a real place not a figure of speech. Jesus is the one telling us of the results of being lost and eternal torments.
Then in my opinion, this is a real case historical event and even if it is a parable it can and is used to teach a precise moral and eternal truth.
The Lake of Fire isn't open for business until the GWT judgment. Hell is not the Lake of Fire. As you should see, it is where the unrighteous dead are confined until they are brought out to be judged. The whole entire place will be cast into the Lake of Fire in the end. So....two distinct places.
You are saying exactly what I stated. You are correct that the Lake of Fire is not as of yet open.
We can not be sure where the LOF is going to be. What we do know for sure is what the Scriptures tell us...........
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
The lake of fire, mentioned only in Revelation 19:20 and 20:10, 14-15, is the final hell, the place of eternal punishment for all unrepentant rebels, both angelic and human (Matthew 25:41). It is described as a place of burning sulfur, and those in it experience eternal, unspeakable agony of an unrelenting nature (Luke 16:24; Mark 9:45-46). Those who have rejected Christ and are in the temporary abode of the dead in hades/sheol have the lake of fire as their final destination.
How hell turns into the LOF is not told to us, only that "death and HELL were cast into the Lake of Fire". They could very well be TWO different places but it is not clear that they are.
Those who are in hell today are in the flames of torment just as the Scriptures say that they are.
Those who reject the gift of salvation go to hell because their natures are incompatible with heaven. The quantity or severity of their sins doesn’t send them there. The problem is that they have not been cleansed of sin, so they remain unholy.
If hell is cast into the LOF, it is obvious that it is a separate thing.
It is for certain that the unsaved who have died are in torment, but are not in the Lake of Fire, as they are awaiting final judgment.
G'day there Major.
It seems to me that much is being built on the fact that unlike (other) parables, Jesus mentions specific names......good point I think, until one inquires about the true and specific identity of 'the rich man'. Did he not also have a name?
Or would any rich guy do? Then why would not any poor guy do also?
It is of some interest to me that the only undeniably historically true Lazarus we meet in scripture was Jesus' friend who incidentally was rich, not poor!
I hope you or some one else here can explain why Abraham, Moses and Lazarus are named specifically as historic persons, yet the rich guy has no historic identity. Also what was the historic identity of Lazarus (the poor guy)?
It seems right to me that the original hearers of Jesus' words should know of the 'poor' and sickly Lazarus just as they would know of Abraham and Moses.
Now I ask this (not of you only Major) because if the name Lazarus was as meaningless to those people then as it is to us now, where does it really leave us in our quest to understand this matter?
I trust that my questions have not been dealt with in detail before, as I must confess to having only read the last two pages of this thread.
What strikes me about the use of the name Lazarus, coupled with the words of Luke 16:31 ....
' And he said unto him,
'If they hear not Moses and the prophets,
neither will they be persuaded,
though one rose from the dead.'
... Is the factual record of a man by the same name (Lazarus) actually rising from the dead: and it thrills my soul to see the use that the Holy Spirit makes of these two events to arrest the attention of those who witnessed both, to question and to wonder. as it does for us today.
'And when He thus had spoken, He cried with a loud voice,
" Lazarus, come forth."
And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes:
and his face was bound about with a napkin.
Jesus saith unto them, "Loose him, and let him go."
Then many of the Jews which came to Mary,
and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on Him.
But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees,
and told them what things Jesus had done.
Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said,
"What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
If we let him thus alone,
all men will believe on him:
and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
And one of them, named Caiaphas,
being the high priest that same year,
said unto them,
"Ye know nothing at all,
Nor consider that it is expedient for us,
that one man should die for the people,
and that the whole nation perish not. "
For His written word, and for The Living Word, our Lord Jesus Christ,
and for the Holy Spirit Who makes Him known.
In Christ Jesus