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A Very Serious Major Doctrinal Change After The Apostles

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by evangelist-77, Jul 24, 2012.

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  1. I hope this will not be another thread for people to get all upset about ...

    The NT churches spread the gospel and confirmed it’s truth with signs and wonders
    “… and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.” (Acts 2:43, 5:12).

    The NT churches were given powerful spiritual gifts to be used in the church and for evangelism
    “There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit … the word of wisdom, the word of knowledge,
    faith, gifts of healings, the working of miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, tongues,
    interpretation of tongues.” (1 Corinthians 12:4-11)

    Paul was trained by the Lord for 17 years (Galatians 1:11--2:1), but …
    “… my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom,
    but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be
    in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 2:4-5, 1 Thessalonians 1:5)

    The apostles warned that false teachers and false doctrines were coming
    “… there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies
    … And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
    By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words …” (2 Peter 2:1-3)
    Also see ...
    2 Cor. 4:2, Eph. 4:14, Eph. 5:15-17, Col. 2:22, 1 Tim. 1:10, 2 Tim. 3:13, 2 Tim. 4:3-4, Heb. 13:9

    The 2 major causes of the early destruction of the spiritual gifts in the Christian church:

    First, we must recognize Satan and his powerful influence
    Satan, our mortal enemy, is the greatest liar and deceiver in the history of the world.
    “the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world” (Revelation 12:9).
    “there is no truth in him ... he is liar and the father of it” (John 8:44).
    “the god of this world” (2 Corinthians 4:4) … and … “the ruler of this world” (John 12:31).
    No one works against God and His purposes with more fury than Satan.
    He obviously attacks those who have the most spiritual power and authority.
    And he obviously attacks the doctrines that have the most spiritual power attached to them.

    Second, the “have-not” church leaders were an obvious problem
    The Lord did NOT give powerful spiritual gifts to everyone in the NT churches.
    These gifts were special anointings, which were connected with the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
    Naturally, those who did NOT have these spiritual gifts were jealous of those who had them.
    The “have-nots” in church authority had to find a way to protect their prestigious positions.
    They decided that pointing to 1 Corinthians 13:10 was their safest and best excuse.
    And many “have-not” church members went along with this rationalization.

    1 Corinthians 13:
    8 … But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease;
    whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
    9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
    10 But when that which is perfect (complete) has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
    11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child;
    but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
    12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face.
    Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as also am known.

    “But when that which is perfect (complete) has come” … the NKJV footnote says:
    “Most likely, this is a reference to the Second Coming of Christ and the completion of all things
    (see verse 12). But some have interpreted this as referring to the completion of the NT canon.
    As far as the NT canon being "that which is perfect" … it simply cannot be what Paul meant.
    Good exegesis simply disallows this interpretation. Paul was writing to the church at Corinth
    and he was writing things that were perfectly understandable to them. They had no way
    of knowing that there was even going to be a New Testament canon when Paul wrote this.
    I don't believe the Holy Spirit would have inspired Paul to write something to them that
    would have been totally incomprehensible because this was not at all a prophetic writing.

    “For now we see in a mirror dimly” … the NKJV footnote refers to Philippians 3:12 …
    “Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected;
    but I press on that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.”

    “face to face” … the NKJV footnote refers to 1 John 3:2 …
    “Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be,
    but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.”

    The inevitable result of this major doctrinal change
    There was a steadily-decreasing belief in this baptism and its’ resulting spiritual gifts.
    Unbelief, and the lack of seeking these blessings, resulted in fewer and fewer people receiving them.
    So, belief in the doctrine of the “second blessing”,
    and the knowledge that the spiritual gifts had not passed away,
    spiraled downward, and a great many dry years followed … until the early 1900’s.
  2. There were no "great many dry years". There have been plenty of spirit filled miracle workers
    through the centuries, though they were Catholic or Orthodox, so they don't count, eh?

    What happened in the early 1900's? I must have missed it.
  3. Yes, I've heard there were a few small independent groups
    who continued on with the way NT churches operated.
    But, Catholic and Orthodox? I'll have to crack open ye olde History book.
    So, what happened to the Protestant churches?

    Many Christians believe that Joel 2 was referring to the last days Pentecost, which began around 1900.
    However, Peter thought it referred to his Day of Pentecost, which lasted the whole of Acts 2.
    IMO, on that FIRST day at least, Peter was not fully clued in, and why should that be a surprise?
    Don't we all grow spiritually in a progressive manner? Paul spent 17(?) years being trained by the Lord.
  4. The Protestant Churches didin't even begin to exist until the 1530's.
    Why do you believe that there is a "last days Pentecost" at all? Don't see the scriptural support for it,
    not in Joel 2 anyway.
  5. First we must honour our Lord Jesus Christ. In response to Peter's confession of faith, He, Jesus declared that on that confession of faith He would build His Church and that the 'gates of hell will not prevail against it. Matt 16:18. Jesus said it, I believe it that settles it. Satan can not prevail against the Church. To say otherwise is a major departure from true doctrine.
    Major likes this.
  6. There is no 'last days Pentecost'.......period
    Think about it....if the second coming or the rapture of the saints (depending on what your preference is) removes the Lord's people, and if that were to be seen as a sort of 'passover', 50 days later there will be none left to celebrate Pentecost.
    As for the 1900s wasn't that the time of the amended 'end time' false prophesy issued be the Charles Taze Russel gang? It began in 1876, but was amended to 1914.....must have been heavy traffic or something.
    So I figure the 1900s is vague enough to try to veil JW propaganda and that of a few others too.
    Major likes this.

  7. Well, we certainly can't have any departuring!
    But, may I do so in order to get to Turkey this September?

    And thou will just have to explain to us what this word "prevail" means exactly.
    Does it mean that Satan can not have any effect on da church doctrines?
    Does it mean that Satan can not have any effect on da church members?
    Please inform us. Tanks.
  8. Can you cite the related verse?

    As I understand, everyone is given spiritual gifts. 1 Corinthians 12:7
    KingJ and NZDave say Amen and like this.
  9. I agree with you and here are a few.............

    Romans 12:6
    We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith.
    1 Corinthians 11:4
    Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head.
    1 Corinthians 12:28
    And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.
  10. I understand your problem ...
    IMO, not everyone in NT times received the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
    Thus, not everyone was given even one of the 9 spiritual gifts in .
    Does anyone in your church have even one of these gifts?

    And is talking about the 5-fold ministry callings, which are not really gifts.
    IMO, in NT times, these leaders all had the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, and some of the 9 gifts.

    Otherwise, they had zero spiritual power to do anything very much at all.
  11. There are many common misconceptions about spiritual gifts.
    Gifts are given to be used at God's discretion, not ours.
    God told Elijah that he had 1000 just like him, but of that 1000 only
    Elijah was chosen to actual use those gifts.
    In my opinion, the vast majority of people who claim to have/use spiritual gifts
    are deluding themselves, because it is fun and instills endless pride, "Look at me I'm
    the spirit filled God warrior".
    Does the Holy Spirit dwell in every true Christian? Yes. Do all Christians actually hear
    anything He has to say? Not hardly.

    A tree is known by it's fruit. If the Church is full of blessed trees, why is the fruit so often rotten?

    Saying that all believers are "filled" with the Spirit is like dropping one grain of salt in
    Lake Superior and calling it salt water.
  12. "And though will just have to explain to us what this word "prevail" means exactly."
    "Please inform us."
    By the use of the word 'us' you are attempting to isolate me from the rest of the group here and associate yourself with the group posting in this thread.
    I do not stand alone, I stand with Christ Jesus.
    By an implied mocking of the use of the word 'prevail' you mock Jesus, as it is He who used it.
    The rest of your post is not deserving of any detailed response...let it just be observed that a cheap and tawdry response is the fruit of a cheap and tawdry intellect.
    As for Gifts of the Holy Spirit, all Christians have them...........Satan denies it in order to try to destroy their faith.
    But then Satan denies a lot of truths. Jesus said that Satan was a liar and a murderer from the very beginning. John 8:44.
    Major likes this.
  13. I'm in agreement with aha ... aha!
  14. Satan seeks to divide and destroy.
    Jesus has taken captivity itself captive and given gifts to men. Eph 4:8. All Christians have received gifts of the Holy Spirit, only Satan will try to dispute this truth. Thereby we know the spirit within a man. the man who denies the gift of the Holy Spirit denies the one who sent Him. Denial of the one who sent Him properly belongs to the spirit of AntiChrist. 1 John 2:22
    Major likes this.
  15. Hi There.
    I have to disagree 100% with all the bold. When we are saved we receive the fullness of the Godhead (Col 2:8-10), which includes Jesus, Holy Spirit and God. A Christian can operate in any and all gifts.

    You state two reasons for Christians not operating in gifts in the 1900's as 1) satan and 2) ''have-not'' church leaders. The only reason would be if you are not a child of God. Our intellect, faith, knowledge of scripture, baptisms or even satan has nothing to do with us operating in gifts. Even unbelief. How is a Christian capable of unbelief? Our desire and God's will are the deciding factors.
  16. GIFTS ... GIFTS ... GIFTS ...
    You boys 'n gals are not talking about the spiritual gifts.
    If you have a Bible, you can read about all 9 of them in 1 Cor 12.
    Any of you have any of them?
    Anyone in your churches have any of them?
    'Dis is what we'all're talkin' 'bout here ... SPIRITUAL GIFTS!
  17. WE, are only responding to what YOU brought up my friend. Can you please explain the following cerse....................

    1 Corth 12:31
    "But covet earnestly the best gifts and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way".

    Although the Holy Spirit is soverign in bestowing gifts, we do have the right to ask God for the gist we want. IS THAT NOT WHAT THE VERSE SAYS????
    Paul says that we are to "covet earnestly the best gifts".

    It seems to me that you are trying to make something simple.......difficult.

    Dr. Harry Ironside, while a professor at Dallas Theological Seminary once stated about his teaching style.......................

    "Put all the cookines on the bottom shelf so that ALL the children can get to them".
  18. Yep..........I saw that as well. Didn't work Calvin, we are still friends my friend!!!!!
  19. This topic has been well discussed, here and in other threads.

    This thread will be closed with prejudice. Please do not open another on this or a similar topic.
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