A Skeptic On Jesus

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by evidenceforjesus78, Feb 12, 2014.

  1. A PROBABLE EXPLANATION OF JESUS CHRIST



    by Jayson X



    Summer 2008



    How can we get a fairly accurate understanding of whom Jesus Christ really was? We can rely heavily on the writing which is generally considered by modern scholars to be the oldest, still-existing biography of Jesus, that is the Gospel of Mark, and use a lot of skepticism. After all, Jesus is not the only human being in history to be mythologized into a superhuman miracle-worker. Saint Nicholas of Myra in Lycia (c. 270-343) was a real person who is now mythologized into Santa Claus, an obese old man who miraculously keeps track of the moral character of children, travels around the Earth on a sleigh pulled by flying reindeer, visits millions of houses in one night without opening any door or window, and leaves presents for millions of children. A similar process happened to Jesus. He was a real person (Jesus of Nazareth) who was mythologized into a make-believe person (Jesus Christ), an even greater miracle worker than Santa Claus!

    Another reason to use skepticism when theorizing about the life of the real Jesus is that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. As far as I know, there is no compelling scientific evidence that the miracles ascribed to Jesus happened, or that any similar miracles ever happened in all of history. Such miracle stories are indeed extraordinary claims without extraordinary proof. Therefore, we should not believe them.

    All this having been said, something like the following is probably the truth about the man known as Jesus Christ. Jesus was born in Nazareth, Galilee, between 7 and 2 B.C.E. and lived there until he was a young man, working as a carpenter. His mother was Mary, and his father was Joseph or some other man. He had brothers and sisters.

    The word messiah means “the anointed one” because Jewish priests, prophets, and kings often began their respective offices after being anointed with oil that was supposedly holy. Many Jews during the time of Jesus believed that God would send a special messiah, the capital-m messiah, to liberate them and their land from foreign rule. The Messiah would also begin the Messianic Age, a time of peace and brotherhood on Earth, without crime, war, and poverty.

    Christ comes from the Greek word for Messiah, Christos. Thus, Christ is NOT Jesus’ last name; it is a title given to him by Christians, expressing their belief that Jesus is the Messiah.

    A man called John the Baptist taught that people should repent and be baptized so that their sins would be forgiven by God. He also preached that the Messiah would come and baptize with the Holy Spirit, which was a far greater baptism than John could do. Perhaps this literal and/or metaphorical baptism was supposed to convey what Galatians 5:22 calls “the fruit of the Spirit”: “love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control”--qualities needed for and indicative of the Messianic Age.



    Jesus left Nazareth to learn about God, serve God, make the world a better place, travel a little, and have some fun. He became a disciple of John, and John baptized him. Eventually, John was arrested and beheaded by King Herod's soldiers because he was openly critical of the king and inclined many citizens toward rebellion. Jesus interpreted the arrest and beheading as a sign that God would now reveal the Messiah to humanity because the Messiah's herald had accomplished his mission: preparing the Jews for the Messiah. John could do no more preparing now that he was dead.

    Like many Jewish men before and after him, Jesus suspected that he himself was the Messiah. He began to gather his own disciples, preach with a very authoritative style, and try to do miracles. Many people liked his preaching and concluded that he actually did miracles. This made him very popular with many Jews, and the stories of his supposed miracles began to be embellished even in his own lifetime.

    The Pharisees were an influential group of Jews who wanted all Jews to live according to the ritualistic commandments of their version of Judaism, but Jesus taught that those commandments could be violated when it was more humane or convenient to do so. This angered the Pharisees, so they sought to have Jesus executed by King Herod, who also disliked Jesus because Jesus was like John the Baptist. Jesus would periodically debate with Pharisees and other Jews on religious topics for close to the remainder of his life, making deadly enemies in the process.

    Jesus's lifelong friends and family generally believed that he was insane (Mark 3:21), and many Jewish religious experts attributed his miracles to the power of Satan (Mark 3:22).

    Jesus preached and tried to work miracles all around Galilee, but the people of his hometown rejected him as a holy man, let alone the Messiah. Jesus then sent out his own disciples in groups of two to preach and try to work miracles, perhaps imitating a similar practice of John the Baptist, his religious mentor.

    Jesus preached and tried to work miracles in Phoenicia and Decapolis. Gradually, he began to convince many of his disciples that he was the Messiah, and he promised that some people living at that time would live to witness the Messianic Age (Mark 9:1). This means that Jesus was wrong. Every human alive then is now dead.

    Jesus preached and tried to work miracles in Judea. Then he went to Jerusalem, the capital of the Jewish people, riding on a young donkey to fulfill a Messianic prophesy (Zechariah 9:9). Many Jews in and around Jerusalem had heard of Jesus by this time and were willing to greet him as the Messiah. They "spread their clothes on the road, and others cut down leafy branches from the trees and spread them on the road. Then those who went before and those who followed cried out, saying: 'Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD! Blessed is the kingdom of our father David that comes in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the highest!'" (Mark 11:8-10). This exclamation means something like the following: "Save us now, God, through the Messiah! Holy is he who comes in the name of God! Holy is Israel, which was founded by God through our first king David! Jesus is the new David! Jesus is the Messiah! Save us now, God, through the Messiah!"

    The visit, which culminated at the supposedly sacred Temple of Jerusalem, was dangerous to do because of the Roman and Jewish authorities. The Romans did not want a supposed Messiah to lead the Jews in a revolt, and the Jewish authorities did not want a Jewish revolt to be brutally crushed by the Romans. Because of the danger to himself, Jesus spent the night outside of Jerusalem in nearby Bethany.


    Jesus returned to Jerusalem the next day and tried to act like the Messiah once again. He drove "out those who bought and sold [things] in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. And he would not allow anyone to carry wares through the temple . . . saying to them, 'Is it not written [in the Jewish holy writings], "My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations"? But you have made it a "den of thieves"'" (Mark 11:15-17). Many of the Jewish religious leaders now sought to kill Jesus because many Jews "were astonished at his teaching" (Mark 11:18). Astonished means that they could have been scandalized that Jesus was rejecting the well-established money-making procedures of the temple, and/or they could have been astonished that Jesus spoke and acted with such authority and eloquence that he really seemed like the Messiah. In any case, Jesus knew that he had placed himself in even more danger this time, so he once again spent the night in Bethany.

    Jesus continued to teach his religious ideas: "Have faith in God [and prayer]. . . . [W]hatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them. [You also need to forgive to be forgiven.]" (Mark 11:22-26)

    Soon after disrupting the temple—perhaps the next day—Jesus returned, and many of the Jewish religious leaders asked him, "By what authority are you doing these things?" (Mark 11:28) But Jesus cleverly evaded the question and began to preach, telling a parable that basically said, "God is good, but you are evil. That is why you and your kind killed all the prophets. I am the Messiah, and you will try to kill me too." These religious leaders would have arrested Jesus right then, but too many Jews who supported Jesus were watching and listening. The religious leaders in Jerusalem were often thought by the average Jew to be collaborators with the despised Romans, seeking to maintain their positions. Therefore, the average Jew favored popular, charismatic religious figures who opposed the religious establishment—figures, such as Jesus.

    Many were impressed with Jesus’ wise and evasive response to the Pharisees and Herodians about paying taxes to Caesar and his response to the Sadducees about Jesus’ doctrine of the resurrection from the dead. The bottom line was that Jesus won the battle of words between himself and those who wanted to discredit him. In fact, Jesus started converting some of the Jewish scribes. Then he kept on preaching in the temple, confounding and sharply criticizing the religious leaders, proclaiming himself the Messiah, and praising generosity. This made most of the Jewish religious leaders hate and fear him all the more.

    Jesus predicted that the Messianic Age would follow difficulties "such as has not been since the beginning of the creation" (Mark 13:19): wars; earthquakes; famines; the sun, moon, and stars losing their light; and other troubles. No one but God knew exactly when this would happen, but it would happen during "this generation" (Mark 13:30). Once again, this means that Jesus was wrong. Everyone from that generation is long dead, and the Messianic Age has not begun.

    One of Jesus’ leading disciples, Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests and promised to give them Jesus for money. Judas probably did not believe at this time that Jesus was the Messiah and hoped to make some money by betraying him. Judas led the chief priests and their helpers to arrest Jesus at night in Bethany, when the multitudes who favored Jesus would be elsewhere asleep. With the high priest presiding and the chief priests and many scribes attending, Jesus was found guilty at a secret trial for falsely claiming to be the Messiah.

    The next morning, the Jewish religious leaders had Jesus brought before Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor of Judea. Their goal was to have Jesus legally executed. Probably, there was an ongoing agreement between the Roman governor and the Jewish priests: The Jewish priests could keep their prestigious jobs and protect their people from Roman punishment to a large degree, if they turned over all Jews who claimed to be the Messiah. The Romans agreed to this because they wanted to rule Judea with as little trouble as possible.



    Pilate had Roman soldiers mock, beat, and crucify Jesus for sedition in order to prove that Jesus was not the Messiah and discourage Jews from rebelling. The Romans wanted the Jews to have no king but Caesar. That is why the sign that was placed above Jesus while he was being crucified said, "THE KING OF THE JEWS," meaning, "This is what will happen to a Jew who tries to be king of Judea without Roman approval."

    Simon of Cyrene probably had to help Jesus carry his cross, Jesus was probably crucified with two thieves, and the Roman soldiers probably gambled for Jesus’ clothes because clothing was so valuable back then.

    On the cross, Jesus asked why God had forsaken him (Mark 15:34). Perhaps he finally realized that he was a fool and not the Messiah. Many of his female followers watched the execution, probably moved by great affection and feeling safer than Jesus’ male disciples. Men, after all, are more likely to be arrested and executed for sedition than women. An admirer of Jesus, Joseph of Arimathea, paid for the false Messiah's burial and tomb.

    Mary Magdalene was a crazy woman--seven demons were supposedly exercised from her--and a disciple of Jesus (Mark 16:9). She told many of Jesus’ grieving disciples that Jesus appeared to her alive. "After that, he [Jesus] [supposedly] appeared in another form to two of them [the disciples] as they walked and went into the country" (Mark 16:12). Many of Jesus’ disciples were grieving largely because they had invested so much money, hope, time, self-esteem, and effort into following him; believing he was the Messiah. They did not want to be proven fools, and they were very eager to be proven right. They were so eager, in fact, that they were willing to believe the testimony of a crazy woman (Mary Magdalene), and two other disciples who said Jesus was alive but he looked like a different man (Mark 16:12)! I hate to point out the obvious, but the reason that the living man did not look like the dead Jesus was that the living man and the dead Jesus were two different people. Duh!

    Around the aforementioned probable facts—and I emphasize the words "probable facts" because my assertions are educated guesses—developed many related myths and traditions about Jesus, including the teachings that Jesus appeared to the eleven apostles (the twelve leading disciples minus Judas Iscariot), gave them the Great Commission, and then ascended into Heaven. The Ascension conveniently explains why the resurrected Jesus can no longer be seen.

    Jesus died between 26 and 36 C.E., and his bones still lie in or around the Middle East. But the religion he accidentally started has spread throughout the Earth and is still vibrant.
     
  2. The article I just posted was written by a Deist skeptic who obviously is not a follower of Jesus, just wondering what some others response would be to this article, I believe it's very important that as believers we be able to debate these issues or we will lose many of the youth who are exposed to these ideas in high school and college.
     
  3. There really is nothing to debate. It all comes down to what one is willing to accept as evidence.
    The author of the article is not a "skeptic" in any real sense, as he is willing to accept any theory which minimizes
    the character and impact of Jesus. He is also willing to minimize the truly heroic nature of the apostles.

    this is a good example:
    Mary Magdalene was a crazy woman--seven demons were supposedly exercised from her

    He does not acccept the existance of demons, therefore Mary Magdalene was insane.
    (it's exorcised by the way)
    A complete assumption on his part based on nothing but his own ignorance.
    To have a debate, two rational persons are required.
     
  4. Suggest to attack the favorite verses of students of their false teachers….

    A proof is sufficient evidence to convince a judge, it may convince one judge, but not the other…
    If it can convince all, then it is a good proof….

    What is then "extraordinary" of a proof for?
    Nothing, it is of no use at all to be used as an adjective for proof.
    It is a word play. Deceptive verses of their false teachers….

    In Logic, there are rules, a premise.
    A premise is an assumption of truth so as conclusion can be made.
    Without a premise, no conclusion.

    We Christians love to quote bible verses in our argument.
    What can be more valid premise?
    The bible speaks the truth!
     
  5. evidenceforjesus78 .. you are quite the novelist ..
    I started correcting your assertions (well just about every sentence) and gave up because it was a mile long ..
     
  6. "Circular reasoning is fallacious because reasoning and justification must start with the known and then determine the unknown - in the case of circular reasoning, it starts with the known and ends up with the equally known, thus it proves nothing.[3]"

    A premise is not properly an "assumption of truth," and if not universally agreed upon as given, is fallacious reasoning:

    "Begging the Question (petitio principii)

    Begging the question is the fallacy of using the conclusion of an argument as one of the premises offered in its own support. Although this often happens in an implicit or disguised fashion, an explicit version would look like this:

    All dogs are mammals.
    All mammals have hair.
    Since animals with hair bear live young, dogs bear live young.
    But all animals that bear live young are mammals.
    Therefore, all dogs are mammals.
    Unlike the other fallacies we've considered, begging the question involves an argument (or chain of arguments) that is formally valid: if its premises (including the first) are true, then the conclusion must be true. The problem is that this valid argument doesn't really provide support for the truth its conclusion; we can't use it unless we have already granted that."

    http://www.philosophypages.com/lg/e06b.htm
     

  7. I didn't write this I merely reposted it as I stated under the first reply. These are not my assertions.
     
  8. from your line above:

    By “ use it” you are referring to using what? _____________
    By “already granted” you mean granting what to what? __________
     
  9. The premises of the argument must logically support the conclusion: The premises cannot be drawn from the conclusion, otherwise the argument is circular. The argument would both start and end with a conclusion.

    If the premises cannot be shown to be true independent of the conclusion, the argument is not valid.

    Whether or not the statement is true, it's not presented in a valid logical form.
     
  10. ca
    can you answer directly the question in post # 8?

    By “ use it” you are referring to using what? _____________
    By “already granted” you mean granting what to what? __________
     
  11. Understood!
     
  12. #12 Brother Paul, Feb 12, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2014
    Aside from the quite circular and not logical assumption based conclusions filling this article, the writer also makes the error of repeating mistaken facts. Mark is not the oldest of the gospels (it is the one we have the oldest fragment of)...one does not equal the other (like when they call Vaticanus and Sinaiticus the "oldest and best" manuscripts). Matthew was the first (Why?) because all the earliest father's attest that this was what they were taught by the Apostles or those the Apostles themselves taught...we have no reason to impeach their credibility....all history says Matthew until about 200 years ago (they made it up to undermine reality so as to implant their replacement)

    The rules of evidence and proof regarding documents and testimony used in all western courts of law declare emphatically that the words used by a writer of a document must be assumed to be what they intended to write, and most likely true, unless absurdity would result. Also that the credibility of the documented facts or testimonies must be taken as true unless an equal amount of valid evidence and testimony from the same events or time would cause one to impeach this credibility. An attempt to do just this was enacted by Sir William Ramsey (world renowned Historian and Archaeologist) who at the time was a vehement atheist and friend of Ingersoll...after ten years of diligent research, repeating his queries twice because of his stark unbelief regarding what he found, he not only fell to his knees and accepted Christ, but declared that Luke (he researched Luke-Acts) was in his opinion one the best most precise historians he had ever encountered. He found no errors (zero) regarding persons, places, events.

    Therefore, unless they can produce some documentation or testimonial commentary from some near to the time or also present at the events, we have NO REASON to doubt the credibility of these witnesses.

    Secondly, the assumption implied that no one really believed these things about Jesus until years after He was mythologized, is itself a contrived replacement myth contrary to found archaeological evidence. No scholar worth his/her salt doubts Jesus was a real person who people in His time believed was the awaited Messiah spoken of in Daniel 9 who was crucified under Pontius Pilate who was buried and whose tomb three days later was empty as He had predicted and finally that people at least believed they had seen Him bodily risen after He physically died. Now records of such a person from centuries before His birth told us of these things and that of His purpose in coming...

    Finds by Archaeologists Bagatti and later by Israeli Archaeologist Sukenik unearthed grave sites (in Jerusalem, the Mount of Olives, Bethany and else where) replete with the signs of the cross, fish, etc., bearing inscriptions like Y'shua is Lord, Y'shua is Messiah, He is Risen, one Sukenik found calls Him our l'shelem (the one who completes the transaction...the redeemer) and most are from the first century (we even found Mary, Martha, Lazarus, Ciaphas, and more) one from as early as 42 A.D. only a decade after the crucifixion. Clearly there was no time for this alleged mythifying to take place...these were alive at the time people.

    brother Paul
     
  13. well it certainly burns your academic currency when you re-post nonacademic articles ..
     
  14. lol .. they don't even want to address an issue .. only methodology ..
     
  15. evidenceforjesus78 .. I misunderstood you .. so I will go through it for you ..

    After all, Jesus is not the only human being in history to be mythologized into a superhuman miracle-worker. A similar process happened to Jesus. He was a real person (Jesus of Nazareth) who was mythologized into a make-believe person (Jesus Christ), an even greater miracle worker than Santa Claus!
    historians use mss to reconstruct the lives of all ancient people ..
    so to call the Christian and secular writings of Jesus "mythologized into a make-believe person" then without bias, you must categorize ALL ancient people as mythologized ..


    Another reason to use skepticism when theorizing about the life of the real Jesus is that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. As far as I know, there is no compelling scientific evidence that the miracles ascribed to Jesus happened, or that any similar miracles ever happened in all of history. Such miracle stories are indeed extraordinary claims without extraordinary proof. Therefore, we should not believe them.
    this assertion is ridiculous .. I would love to hear the "compelling scientific proof" that Plato was a man and not a woman .. once again, under that premise, no ancient mss of a person should be believed, hence deleting a vast amount of history ..

    His mother was Mary, and his father was Joseph or some other man.
    if this is skepticism, under what data are they drawing their assertions .. I find it interesting that they use the bible as a source for Joseph yet feel free to alter it without any evidence to delete a deity birth ..

    Christ comes from the Greek word for Messiah, Christos. Thus, Christ is NOT Jesus’ last name; it is a title given to him by Christians, expressing their belief that Jesus is the Messiah.
    the Greek word Messias is derived from the Hebrew word mashiyach meaning "anointed"
    the Greek word Christos means "THE anointed one" and is derived from chriō which means "to anoint" ..
     
  16. Jesus left Nazareth to learn about God, serve God, make the world a better place, travel a little, and have some fun.
    Jesus was teaching the Rabi about God when he was 12 ..
    nor did he ever express a motive of fun as part of His ministry ..

    He became a disciple of John, and John baptized him.
    this is a grossly inaccurate assertion .. as John expressed that he was not even worthy to untie Jesus' sandals (Act 13:25) .. John's disciples left him and followed Jesus (Jhn 1:37) ..

    Eventually, John was arrested and beheaded by King Herod's soldiers because he was openly critical of the king and inclined many citizens toward rebellion.
    another fabricated assertion, as John never incited anyone towards rebellion ..

    Jesus interpreted the arrest and beheading as a sign that God would now reveal the Messiah to humanity because the Messiah's herald had accomplished his mission:
    John had already told everyone Jesus was the Messiah (Jhn 1:36) ..

    Like many Jewish men before and after him, Jesus suspected that he himself was the Messiah.
    Jesus did not speculate anything .. He knew who was His "Father" long before 12 ..
    even the miracle at Cana (20 mi n of Nazareth) was long before this ..


    He began to gather his own disciples, preach with a very authoritative style, and try to do miracles. Many people liked his preaching and concluded that he actually did miracles. This made him very popular with many Jews, and the stories of his supposed miracles began to be embellished even in his own lifetime.
    "tried to do" and "embellished" refute the text and are opinions, and should be stated as such ..

    The Pharisees were an influential group of Jews who wanted all Jews to live according to the ritualistic commandments of their version of Judaism, but Jesus taught that those commandments could be violated when it was more humane or convenient to do so.
    more opinion mixed in as factual .. Jesus brought a new covenant, and preached in in His ministry before He enacted it with His death .. when He did do something contrary to the law, He showed with scripture that it actually did not violate the law ..

    This angered the Pharisees, so they sought to have Jesus executed by King Herod, who also disliked Jesus because Jesus was like John the Baptist.
    they sought to kill Jesus because the High Priest Caiaphas received a prophecy and misinterpreted it (Jhn 11:49-53) ..

    Jesus would periodically debate with Pharisees and other Jews on religious topics for close to the remainder of his life, making deadly enemies in the process.
    Jesus never debated ..

    Jesus's lifelong friends and family generally believed that he was insane (Mark 3:21), and many Jewish religious experts attributed his miracles to the power of Satan (Mark 3:22).
    incorrect .. Jesus' "people" were trying to get Him out of there to protect Him, BECAUSE the scribes (enumerated in Mark #:22) "for they were saying, “He has lost His senses.” .. "they" refers to the scribes ..

    Jesus preached and tried to work miracles all around Galilee, but the people of his hometown rejected him as a holy man, let alone the Messiah.
    again not true .. 3 of His apostles were from Nazareth ..
    MATTHEW - called Levi, brother to James, son of Alphaeus, a former tax collector, from Nazareth in Galilee (Mat 9:1 & 9:9 & 10:3, Mar 2:14 & 3:18, Luk 6:15)
    JAMES - brother to Matthew, son of Alphaeus, from Nazareth in Galilee (Mat 10:3, Mar 2:14 & 3:18, Luk 6:15, Act 1:13)
    JUDAS - called Thaddaeus, son of James, from Nazareth in Galilee (Mat 10:3, Mar 3:18, Luk 6:16, Act 1:13)


    Jesus then sent out his own disciples in groups of two to preach and try to work miracles, perhaps imitating a similar practice of John the Baptist, his religious mentor.
    the unsubstantiated and text refuting "tried to" oration is truly is tiresome ..

    Jesus preached and tried to work miracles in Phoenicia and Decapolis. Gradually, he began to convince many of his disciples that he was the Messiah,
    incorrect .. the Jews knew the Messiah escaped Herod at birth, and people were since then trying to find Him .. Phillip show belief of this from the beginning ..
    Jhn 1:45 Philip found Nathanael and *said to him, “We have found Him of whom Moses in the Law and also the Prophets wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

    and he promised that some people living at that time would live to witness the Messianic Age (Mark 9:1). This means that Jesus was wrong. Every human alive then is now dead.
    no it means you are wrong, because you do not understand it .. He said "this generation" not "you people" (not a reference to any present) which runs until His Coming .. the "2nd Generation" (2nd fruits) refers to those of the Millennium Reign ..

    Jesus preached and tried to work miracles in Judea.
    again, unsubstantiated and text refuting opinion ..
     
  17. This exclamation means something like the following: "Save us now, God, through the Messiah! Holy is he who comes in the name of God! Holy is Israel, which was founded by God through our first king David! Jesus is the new David! Jesus is the Messiah! Save us now, God, through the Messiah!"
    the "Hoshana" was a feast day .. it was the 7th and last day of Sukkot .. Sukkot was observed in remembrance of the 7 days between the Exodus and the Red Sea Crossing in which they made huts out of Palm Branches .. on the 7th Day is when disassembled them and that is where they got the palm branches from .. because that is when God parted the sea and they no longer were pursed by Pharaoh .. hence Hoshana "saves us" refers to God's salvation, and thus they related God's salvation to Jesus (their Messiah) ..

    The visit, which culminated at the supposedly sacred Temple of Jerusalem,
    not supposedly, it was always sacred to them .. perhaps the boring biased should have been left out and said "their sacred Temple"

    was dangerous to do because of the Roman and Jewish authorities. The Romans did not want a supposed Messiah to lead the Jews in a revolt, and the Jewish authorities did not want a Jewish revolt to be brutally crushed by the Romans. Because of the danger to himself, Jesus spent the night outside of Jerusalem in nearby Bethany.
    that was not the reason .. He left because it was late (Mar 11:11) ..

    Jesus returned to Jerusalem the next day and tried to act like the Messiah once again.
    [sic] puke ..

    He drove "out those who bought and sold [things] in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. And he would not allow anyone to carry wares through the temple . . . saying to them, 'Is it not written [in the Jewish holy writings], "My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations"? But you have made it a "den of thieves"'" (Mark 11:15-17).
    Jesus was upset with those who were "greedily extorting God" .. those who made sin or dedications "korban" bought doves etc .. that was normal .. where do you think Joseph and Mary got the doves for Jesus' dedication ??? (Lev 12:4, Lev 12:6, Luk 2:22-24) ..

    Many of the Jewish religious leaders now sought to kill Jesus because many Jews "were astonished at his teaching" (Mark 11:18).
    that was not the MAIN reason .. it was because Caiaphas received the yearly High Priest prophecy and misunderstood it in the physical sense instead of the spiritual sense (Jhn 11:49-53) ..

    In any case, Jesus knew that he had placed himself in even more danger this time, so he once again spent the night in Bethany.
    again ??? that is the same evening .. and once again, the reason given is simply because it was late (Mar 11:11) ..

    (Mark 11:28) But Jesus cleverly evaded the question
    Jesus evaded no questions .. once when asked a question He answered with a counter-question .. and if they had answered Him, it would have answered their question .. that is why when they evaded His counter question, that He said then neither will I answer you ..

    The religious leaders in Jerusalem were often thought by the average Jew to be collaborators with the despised Romans, seeking to maintain their positions. Therefore, the average Jew favored popular, charismatic religious figures who opposed the religious establishment—figures, such as Jesus.
    incorrect .. the High Priest and Sanhedrin did not like Pilate, and tried to manipulate Him by saying .. if you do not crucify Jesus, then you are an enemy of Caesar and you are liable for punishment (Jhn 19:12-15) ..

    Many were impressed with Jesus’ wise and evasive response to the Pharisees and Herodians about paying taxes to Caesar
    Jesus' response was not evasive but straight forward ..

    Jesus predicted that the Messianic Age would follow difficulties "such as has not been since the beginning of the creation" (Mark 13:19): wars; earthquakes; famines; the sun, moon, and stars losing their light; and other troubles. No one but God knew exactly when this would happen, but it would happen during "this generation" (Mark 13:30).
    Once again, this means that Jesus was wrong. Everyone from that generation is long dead, and the Messianic Age has not begun.
    once again this means YOU are wrong, because you do not understand it, it was an analogy .. every year there are 2 crops .. the 1st "generating period/generation" (1st crop/1st fruits) take twice as long (2000 yrs) because the root system needs to be established .. then the tribulation and the beginning of the Millennium Reign .. the 2nd "generating period/generation" (2nd crop/2nd fruits) takes half the time (1000 yrs) .. then Judgement Day ..
     
  18. One of Jesus’ leading disciples, Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests and promised to give them Jesus for money.
    it figures you would try and make Judas innocent .. Judas was NOT a leading Apostle .. he thought he was slick, but he did not want Jesus anointed so he could steal the money .. he was a thief (Jhn 12:6) ..

    Judas probably did not believe at this time that Jesus was the Messiah and hoped to make some money by betraying him.
    Judas believed it .. he was greedy and served self, and was not called "the son of perdition" for nothing ..

    Judas led the chief priests and their helpers to arrest Jesus at night in Bethany, when the multitudes who favored Jesus would be elsewhere asleep.
    it was in Jerusalem a stones throw from the Temple on the Mount of Olives ..

    With the high priest presiding and the chief priests and many scribes attending, Jesus was found guilty at a secret trial for falsely claiming to be the Messiah.
    they purposely brought false wittiness against Jesus (Mat 26:59) and He was/is the Messiah ..

    The next morning, the Jewish religious leaders had Jesus brought before Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor of Judea. Their goal was to have Jesus legally executed. Probably, there was an ongoing agreement between the Roman governor and the Jewish priests: The Jewish priests could keep their prestigious jobs and protect their people from Roman punishment to a large degree, if they turned over all Jews who claimed to be the Messiah. The Romans agreed to this because they wanted to rule Judea with as little trouble as possible.
    wrong .. Pilate tried continually to release Jesus, saying "I find no fault in Him" .. but as I already pointed out, the manipulated Pilate by saying "if you dont, then you admit there is another King, making you an enemy of Caesar (Jhn 19:12-15) ..

    Pilate had Roman soldiers mock, beat, and crucify Jesus for sedition in order to prove that Jesus was not the Messiah and discourage Jews from rebelling.
    wrong .. Pilate had Jesus scourged as to try and satisfy the High Priest and Sanhedrin so he would not have to crucify Him (Luk 23:22 Jhn 19:1-4) ..

    The Romans wanted the Jews to have no king but Caesar.
    then who was King Herod Antipas, whom Caesar Augustus installed and Caesar Tiberius kept in place as Tetrarch of Galilee ???

    That is why the sign that was placed above Jesus while he was being crucified said, "THE KING OF THE JEWS," meaning, "This is what will happen to a Jew who tries to be king of Judea without Roman approval."
    wrong .. that was Pilate's MAJOR DIG back at the High Priest and Sanhedrin for manipulating him into crucifying Jesus when he did not want to ..
    Jhn 19:19 Pilate also wrote an inscription and put it on the cross. It was written, “JESUS THE NAZARENE, THE KING OF THE JEWS.”
    Jhn 19:21 So the chief priests of the Jews were saying to Pilate, “Do not write, ‘The King of the Jews’; but that He said, ‘I am King of the Jews.’

    Jhn 19:22 Pilate answered, “What I have written I have written.


    Simon of Cyrene probably had to help Jesus carry his cross, Jesus was probably crucified with two thieves, and the Roman soldiers probably gambled for Jesus’ clothes because clothing was so valuable back then.
    the soldiers worn uniforms .. the 4 soldiers divided his outer garments between them, but they "cast lots" (which was done with short sticks, perhaps with their names written on them) which is a method of scrying aka telling fate, not truly gambling .. because Jesus robe was valuable being seamless (Jhn 19:23-24) ..

    On the cross, Jesus asked why God had forsaken him (Mark 15:34). Perhaps he finally realized that he was a fool and not the Messiah.
    God did NOT forsake Jesus (Psa 22:24) ..
    I'm just waiting to see if you blasphemy the HS ..


    Many of his female followers watched the execution, probably moved by great affection and feeling safer than Jesus’ male disciples. Men, after all, are more likely to be arrested and executed for sedition than women. An admirer of Jesus, Joseph of Arimathea, paid for the false Messiah's burial and tomb.
    Joseph of Arimathea was a member of the Sanhedrin AND a Christian (Mar 15:43) ..
    he had already made the family tomb, not bought it (Mat 27:60) ..
    he bought the shroud (bought a linen cloth) ..


    Mary Magdalene was a crazy woman--seven demons were supposedly exercised from her--and a disciple of Jesus (Mark 16:9).
    she was a compassionate woman, and she was wise enough to believe ..

    She told many of Jesus’ grieving disciples that Jesus appeared to her alive. "After that, he [Jesus] [supposedly] appeared in another form to two of them [the disciples] as they walked and went into the country" (Mark 16:12).
    Mary saw the tomb was empty .. ran back to tell the Apostles, Peter and John went back with her and saw it was so .. they left, THEN she saw Jesus .. the 2 on the road were disciples (not Apostles) and most likely of the 70 Jesus chose .. Cleopas and Simon (Luk 24:18,34) ..

    Many of Jesus’ disciples were grieving largely because they had invested so much money, hope, time, self-esteem, and effort into following him; believing he was the Messiah. They did not want to be proven fools, and they were very eager to be proven right.
    give me a break .. what a ignorant assumption stated as a fact ..

    They were so eager, in fact, that they were willing to believe the testimony of a crazy woman (Mary Magdalene), and two other disciples who said Jesus was alive but he looked like a different man (Mark 16:12)!
    she was wiser then a scoffer .. and as I already said, she told the Apostles, and Peter and John went to check it out, and found the shroud and face cloth and no body ..

    I hate to point out the obvious, but the reason that the living man did not look like the dead Jesus was that the living man and the dead Jesus were two different people. Duh!
    really ??? .. then why did Mary of Magdala not recognize Jesus either ??? and why did Jesus say he was "flesh" and eat as well, yet could appear in a room without using the door ??? .. DUH

    The Ascension conveniently explains why the resurrected Jesus can no longer be seen.
    actually Jesus answers your question .. so ALL believers can have an indwelling of the HS, which He works individually with each believer (Jhn 16:7) ..

    Jesus died between 26 and 36 C.E., and his bones still lie in or around the Middle East.
    a VERY poor assumption ..

    But the religion he accidentally started has spread throughout the Earth and is still vibrant.
    no accident .. it was prophesied from the beginning ..
     
  19. evidenceforjesus78 .. people like this I pay no attention to .. I try to help those who seek God, and those who know God .. ones such as this have no desire to hear .. however, I hope the statements I addressed, were of some use to your stated motive ..

    I believe it's very important that as believers we be able to debate these issues or we will lose many of the youth who are exposed to these ideas in high school and college.

    God Bless you ..
     
  20. evidenceforjesus78 .. I see this is a passion of your's by your user name .. so these are for you ..

    NON CHRISTIAN HISTORIANS ON JESUS
    Josephus (A.D. 37-100), the Jewish historian, would wrote a generation after Jesus Christ, makes several references to people well-known to New Testament readers. F. F. Bruce summarized the evidence:

    "Here, in the pages of Josephus, we meet many figures who are well known to us from the New Testament; the colorful family of the Herods; the Roman emperors Augustus, Tiberius, Claudius, and the procurators of Judea; the high priestly families--Annas, Caiaphas, Ananias, and the rest; the Pharisees and the Sadducees; and so on" (F. F. Bruce, New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? p.104.)
    He wrote explicitly about Jesus:

    "At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. . . . Pilate condemned Him to be condemned and to die. And those who had become His disciples did not abandon His discipleship. They reported that He had appeared to them three days after His crucifixion and that He was alive; accordingly, He was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders" (Antiquities, xviii.ch. 3, subtopic 3, Arabic text).
    "Now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works--a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew ever to him both many of the Jews, and many Gentiles. He was the Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestions of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to be condemned and to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not foesake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and the ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day" (Antiquities, xviii.ch. 3, subtopic 3, Greek text).

    Josephus also wrote about James, the brother of Jesus.

    "(Ananus) assembled the sanhedrin of the judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, the so-called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he deliever them to be stoned" (Antiquities XX 9:1).

    (Antiquities Book 18 Chapter 3 subtopic 3)
    (Antiquities Book 20 Chapter 9 subtopic 1)

    subtobic 4 shows that it is the same author as subtopic 3 ..
    thus NOT inserted !!!

    "About the same time also, another sad calamity .."
    ===========================================
    Cornelius Tacitus (A.D. 55?-after 117), the Roman Historian, wrote of Nero's attempt to relieve himself of the guilt of burning Rome:
    "Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with the most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also" (Annals XV.44).

    Lucian (second century), Greek Satirist, alludes to Christ in these words:
    "The man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced this new cult into the world. . . . Furthermore, their first lawgiver persuaded them that they were all brothers one of another after they have transgressed once for all by denying the Greek gods and by worshipping that crucified sophist himself and living under his laws" (On the Death of Peregrine).

    Suetonius (c. A.D. 120), a Roman Historian and court official under Hadrian made two references to Christ. In the Life of Claudius (25.4) he wrote
    "As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chestus [another spelling of Christus or Christ], he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome."
    In the Lives of the Caesars (26.2) he wrote:
    "Punishment by Nero was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition."

    Pliny the Younger (c. A.D. 112), when writing to the emperor about his achievements as governor of Bithynia, wrote how he had killed multitudes of Christian men, women, and children. He wrote:
    "All who denied that they were or had been Christians I consider should be discharged, because they called upon the gods at my dictation and did reverence, with incense and wine, your [the emperor's] image . . . they curse Christ, which a genuine Christian cannot be induced to do" (Epistles, X.96).
    He also wrote in the same letter:
    "Christians were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verse of a hymn to Christ as to a god, and bound themselves to a solemn oath, not to do any wicked deeds, and never to deny a truth when they should be called upon to deliver it up."

    Thallus (c. A.D. 52) was a Samaritan-born historian.

    Julius Africanus (c. A.D. 221) wrote:
    "Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away this darkness [at the time of the crucifixion] as an eclipse of the sun-unreasonably, as it seems to me."
    This was unreasonable, of course, because a solar eclipse could not take place at the time of the full moon, and it was the time of the paschal full moon when Christ died.

    Mara Bar Serapion (after A.D. 73) wrote a letter that now resides in the British Museum. According to F. F. Bruce it was written by a father to his son in prison. In the letter he compares the deaths of Socrates, Pythagoras, and Jesus:
    "What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished. . . . But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise King die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he had given" (Bruce, op. cit., p.14).

    The Jewish Talmud was completed by A.D. 500. The Babylonian Talmud reference to Jesus:
    "On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu (of Nazareth) and them herald went before him for forty days saying (Yeshu of Nazareth) is going to be stoned in that he hath practiced sorcery and beguiled and led astray Israel. Let everyone knowing aught in his defense come and plead for him. But they found naught in his defense and hanged him on the eve of Passover" (Sanhedrin 43a, "Eve of Passover").
     

Share This Page