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A Sign Of The Times?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by RiverJordan, Dec 20, 2013.

  1. In Washington State, where gay marriage is legal, a vice principal at a Catholic school was fired for marrying his partner. The decision to dismiss the teacher was made by the Archdiocese of Seattle.

    In response, students at the school protested by walking out of classes and engaging in sit ins on campus. Students at nearby Catholic schools also joined in. Reportedly, the entire school body participated. LINK

    Polls unequivocally show that the younger generations today overwhelmingly support marriage equality and equal protection under the law for gays, at much, much higher rates than older generations. The students at this high school changed "Change the Church" at their protests.

    Is this a sign of things to come? Will the Catholic Church eventually change its stance, or will it stand by its position, likely losing followers in the west with each passing year?
  2. Its the sign of things to come and things that are already here. Sadly, I only see it getting worse, though I pray not. Unfortunately the world has crept into the Church.
  3. Greetings:

    I've been asking youths.....would you condemn homosexuals flagrantly living together as sexual
    partners;not one would.When I was young,the answer would be ugh.I would call this current

  4. In the last days people will have a form of Godliness but will eschew the power thereof.
    People are kinder now than in the past, more accepting, more tolerant, more stupid, and more sinful.
  5. #5 LysanderShapiro, Dec 21, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2013
    Short answer to the second question, no. The Church has capital T Traditions and little t traditions. There have been many councils and certain traditions have been changed/removed/introduced. However, marriage is a sacrament as it is a vocation. The Church is very specific regarding the subject of marriage. A lot of people believe it has only one rule; one man and one woman...but that's not true. The criteria for marriage within the Church extends out to whether the bride or groom is Catholic, must receive their Pre Cana certificate, cannot be related, etc. etc. It's not that the Church is trying to exclude, but they are trying to uphold Christian practice as instructed by God.

    Take the Eucharist for instance; one can't just go up and participate in Communion...there's a criteria necessary. Granted, a priest is unlikely to turn you away from that, but the fulfillment of the Eucharist means having to be baptized, confirmed into the Church, and be in a state of grace (it might mean having to go to Confession first).

    I do think those protesting against the Church's position of marriage is probably a sign of the times. Though the Church is dogmatic and sincere about what it teaches -- it hasn't changed ever since it came to be 2000 years ago.
  6. I'm struck by the generational divide on this issue. In my experience (which I admit is limited), I don't know of any other issue with this stark of a difference from one generation to the next. When I was in high school, we debated and discussed gay and marriage questions, but it seems like with the kids in high school today there is no debate. And of course my Dad tells me that when he was in high school, there wasn't a debate (but for the opposite reason). That's a very fast turnaround for such a huge social issue.

    So I wonder what will happen when the baby boomers fade and the next generations take over power positions within the Catholic Church, and other denominations. To many older folks, it may seem unthinkable that certain traditions will ever change, but I suspect that when they do, most of those older folks won't be around to see it happen.

    I'm sure there will be some holdouts that keep their traditions.....and have empty pews.
  7. This is a multilayer subject, but multiple sides seems to be treating it as only one layer. For instance, same-sex marriage is a different discussion from homosexuality itself. Same-sex marriage in the Church is a different discussion from same-sex marriage from the State. Side B homosexuality is different from side A homosexuality (ie, remaining chaste/celibate vs. pursuing one's homosexual tendencies).

    Both sides of the argument tend to have reactionary responses, and I'm not convinced either reactions are healthy. One sides can be very spiteful and unfair toward the subject. The other side can misunderstand where a line is to be drawn, thus many people leave the Church for it.

    It's not so simple.
  8. Or this-
    /ˈsɪŋ[​IMG]krɪˌtaɪz, ˈsɪn-/ verb (used without object), syn·cre·tized, syn·cre·tiz·ing.
    to attempt to combine or unite, as different or opposing principles, parties, etc.
  9. CJB Romans 1:26 This is why God has given them up to degrading passions; so that their women exchange natural sexual relations for unnatural; 27 and likewise the men, giving up natural relations with the opposite sex, burn with passion for one another, men committing shameful acts with other men and receiving in their own persons the penalty appropriate to their perversion.
  10. I agree that it's not simple and is multi-layered. I'm just seeing the stark generational differences on this issue and concluding that there will be a day after the current older generation is gone and today's youth are running things, this won't even be an issue. And possibly by the generation after that, they'll look back on our time in history and wonder "How could they be like that?"

    I'm wondering how deep this will go. I mean...same sex couples are marrying in Utah right now. Utah! :eek:

    And since I was in high school, what I've been seeing from the conservative religious side is that if we allow this sort of thing, it'll be the end of America, the end of western civilization, or the beginning of the end of everything.

    Yet here we are, things are moving fast on this front, and none of that is happening. I guess that's part of the overreaction you were talking about, huh?
  11. I have to agree, Tradition is not going to change from Rome. Aside from a decline in Witch burnings the Catholic Church remains the same.
    There has been a push in the past to allow priest to be married to a opposite sex person. To take the biblical position on marriage but even that has not been passed. So homosexual marriage would be out of the question.

    The Catholic church has changed it's Doctrines a bit now an then, but it was how they view scriptures. At one time Rome was against the now sacred Trinity Doctrine and anyone who taught it was um........ they were talked to.

    This was due because the concept of Trinity did not exist except in a few early writings which Rome rejected. Alexandria had Jesus as a created being and subject to moral change. Arianism taught Jesus was a created being from nothing and this did not set well with some in Rome as it removed the divinity of Jesus. (No wonder the Library of Alexandria burned down)

    To settle all this the First Council of Nicaea was introduced, though Constantine accepted the new Trinity Doctrine, He did not promote it like Anti-Trinitarians claim he did. The Trinity Doctrine did not come out of Pagan beliefs like many claim. It came from settling the debate with Arians and clear up the teaching from Alexandria.

    Original Trinity accepted Doctrine:

    The Doctrine states Jesus is God of God and of the same substance of God the Father, but not the Father. It was also voted on if Easter should be celebrated and I guess that passed the vote.

    This is the only Major big issue doctrine I have known the Catholic Church to flip flop on. I doubt they will be voting gay any time soon.

  12. Maybe this speaks to the heart of the problem.
    A young,.... an embryonic adult should not be asked to make adult judgments. They need to be taught what is right and what is wrong right from the start. As children, playing 'cops and robbers' was fine in that we knew there was a 'right and wrong' team to be on.
    We were never asked to sit in judgment of our 'fathers' in the way today's children are encouraged so to do.
    A quote frome the film Twister'......."When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you" While the character who spoke those words was a first class jerk, the point is, children should be guided by the standards of their 'tribal elders' until they become mature elders themselves.
    Right from a very early age children are taught disrespect for authority.

    As for the school 'vice' principle, if he was openly homosexual and living out his lifestyle fantasies, he should not have been tolerated in a school environment in the first place. If he was covert in his lifestyle living until his mock marriage then he should have been exposed as a deceiver and a liar.
  13. I think you've misunderstood a bit, with all due respect of course.

    The Church has never, nor can it, change her doctrine, no matter how badly some theologians may want it to or how loudly they claim it can. The Church does not have the power to do the impossible, to change or delete divinely revealed truth which forms the deposit of faith. In general, doctrine is all Church teaching in matters of faith and morals. Dogma is more narrowly defined as that part of doctrine which has been divinely revealed and which the Church has formally defined and declared to be believed as revealed.
  14. checking up on it. Seems it may have been a couple groups around at Constantine time. He banned one guy who made Jesus to be a created being. Seems the Catholics had gotten the blame but it appears the Church did not even get started until that time because being a Christian was against the law in most places. Having Constantine on their side helped out lots though some suspect He was not really a believer.

    Thanks for checking me on this, you can't buy into all you read. It's also so far back............ hard to say who is right about what.

  15. Indeed, it does require a lot of research.

    Rome endorsing Catholicism didn't start until the era f Constantine, but the Catholic Church had been in existence for hundreds of years before Constantine, when Christ founded the Church himself. Ignatius of Antioch is a good source as one of his letters from 110 AD read "wherever Jesus Christ is, there you will find the Catholic Church." He was a student under Peter and a bishop in Antioch. He was famously martyred by being eaten by lions.

    A big misconception is that Constantine started the Catholic Church. He actually introduced Catholicism to Rome as he was a convert from a Pagan Rome. He was apparently not a very good Catholic, but he initiated the Edict of Tolerance which was meant to end martyrs of different religions.

    A lot of people, including many Catholics, believe "Roman Catholic" is the official term, but it isn't. "Catholic" is the official term, even though there are other forms of Catholics, like Byziantines.
  16. In times past, many of these kids would be working and have their own families. It's only fairly recently (and in western culture) that 14-18 year-olds are thought of as "kids".

    Oh brother....:rolleyes:

    I agree that he violated the agreement he had with the school. That's not an issue for me. As I've said, this case makes me feel like that when the older generations pass on and today's youth are running things, history will not be kind to the oldsters on this issue.
  17. Eph 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.
    Eph 6:2 "Honor your father and mother" (this is the first commandment with a promise),
    Eph 6:3 "that it may go well with you and that you may live long in the land."
    Eph 6:4 Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.

    I wonder what the above means if it doesn't mean what it says?;)
    2Tim 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,
    I suspect that time is now upon us.
  18. And hence why we have so many places people call churches. There is no such thing as false churches. There is a such thing as use to be Churches.
  19. #19 calvin, Dec 24, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2013
    I get what you mean, but I'm a bit more moderate.
    One thing that has escaped the notice of many younger thinkers is that the society which gives them so many of the freedoms and benefits they enjoy and think are their 'God given' rights, was not built on same sex marriages, free and open abortion on demand, pornography, pedophilia, designer drugs, legalized marijuana, atheism, etc. etc. It was built on an acceptance of the values adopted by their forefathers, which in turn was given by the inspired word of God.
    2Tim 3:1 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty.
    2Tim 3:2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,
    2Tim 3:3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good,
    2Tim 3:4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
    2Tim 3:5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.
    I want to put the spotlight on those who are disobedient to their parents. It seems to me that Paul is not talking about young school aged children who are a bit naughty, but rather a generation old enough to be held accountable for their disobedience.
    So I submit, these that are disobedient are an up and coming generation who are despising and disregarding the counsel given them by their parents (their older generation) who have lived and taught under God's authority.
  20. Sit com's and I saw a commercial the other day where mom and dad were trying to figure out some Hand held device and the kids said Duhhhh. Mom and dad smiled as if it was OK. It's a media push that shows kids smarter and Parents unfair being stupid.

    If my kid said Duhhh to me, it would be a remembered major event in their life.

    Also the Term.......... Whatever

    Does not fly in my house.


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