A Sensitive Topic...

Discussion in 'Evangelism' started by Onehope, Feb 23, 2014.

  1. #21 sojourner4Christ, May 18, 2014
    Last edited: May 18, 2014
    I "promise" that the Lord will return, and that he will judge righteously. Is your lamp oiled?
    Rather, there is a myriad of choices. In truth, the earthly government is to sit on Christ’s shoulder (Isaiah 9:6), and there is no end to his government (Isaiah 9:7, Psalms 145:13). Those in government are instructed to follow God's Law and serve him (Psalm 2:10-12). And we are to obey the ordinances of man as long as they do God’s Will, through punishing evildoers and praising them that do well (Romans 13:3, 1 Peter 2:13-17).
    BTW, democracy is no answer. Democracy is nothing more than two wolves and a lamb getting together to decide what's for dinner; it's MOB RULE, where God is not a consideration.

    If your reaction to being told that there are faults in Caesar's statutes is to rush to defend them, it is because you cannot envision life without them. This is normal for someone who can only see one kingdom: the kingdom of this world. Yet this world is passing away, as are our own bodies. There is only one thing in life more certain than Caesar's taxes. So we are really here as a test of whether we can “see” and then choose those things that have eternal value. Are our energies devoted to laying up earthly treasures, or treasures in heaven? Are we slaves devoted to building the kingdom of this world, or are we seeking first the kingdom of God? We cannot even know where to begin unless we can see God's kingdom, which is the true meaning of being born again.

    God in his sovereignty has provided the perfect means of testing whether we can make the distinction between the two kingdoms. Caesar has usurped God's authority, but his kingdom is built entirely with our consent and by using legal fictions. His authority over us is imaginary. We do not have to render ourselves to him unless we believe that we belong to him. Most people believe with all their heart that they do, for they cannot see the alternative. But if you know that you belong to God, along with your labor, your family, and everything else you have, then you will already have a deep-seated unease with the multitude of demands Caesar makes on you.

    If this is the case, then make a list of those things that rightly belong to God but you have in ignorance given to Caesar. Then develop a plan of action for returning them to their rightful owner. This is not easy, but it is necessary. You will need to learn much more about God's Law so that you can discern what true obedience requires of you. If you trust the State to provide for your needs rather than trusting God, it should be clear which master you are serving. As no man can serve two masters, you have a choice to make. Scripture is clear that obedience to God comes at a price, and we must first count the cost. But once you can see the eternal kingdom, you will realize that any price is worth it.

    Matthew 13:44, The kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
     
  2. Ro 13:1 ¶ Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
    2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
    3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

    "Render unto Caesar those things that be Caesars, and unto God those things that be Gods"
    Don't complicate and look for sin, where there is no sin..unless you are here to "accuse"?:eek:
     
  3. #23 sojourner4Christ, May 18, 2014
    Last edited: May 19, 2014
    What a beautiful proclamation of the absolute sovereignty of Godly authority!

    In Romans 13:1-4 KJV we read: "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."

    These words have been widely interpreted to simply mean all believers should obey the government because government has been ordained of God. This particular view is a gross distortion of the truth. In this context, I've found that when a superficial reading of a certain text somehow doesn't seem logical, it's useful to look at the actions of the writer to see if his life and actions are consistent with your interpretation of his teaching. In short, when Paul writes that "they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation," but the book of Acts shows Paul repeatedly doing just that, there must be something wrong with our understanding of the text. And that's precisely what we see throughout the New Testament.

    It is noteworthy that modern copyrighted “versions” of The Holy Bible have changed the phrase “higher powers” to merely “governing authorities,” thereby obscuring the necessary distinction between Godly authority and ungodly authority, between God’s kingdom and Satan’s kingdom.

    When Paul writes in the opening statement of Romans chapter 13, "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers," the obvious question is who or what are the higher powers? This phrase would have to apply to any higher powers, be they spiritual or earthly. Obviously, in the spiritual realm, there are good and bad powers. On one side we have the Lord and his great angelic host. In the other group, we find Lucifer and "the angels which kept not their first estate" (Jude 1:6). This fallen host most certainly qualifies as a "higher power," for Satan is referred to as the "prince of the power of the air" (Ephesians 2:2). Later in that same book, Paul tells us "We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places" (Ephesians 6:12).

    Common sense tells you that Paul is not telling us to be "subject to" the Satanic higher powers in the spiritual realm, so why do we assume he is telling us to be subject to evil earthly powers? How could it be scriptural for us to cooperate with the earthly agency of that spiritual wickedness? The next verse says "Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation." If we resist the evil in the spiritual realm, it's clear we don't receive damnation as a result! How then, could this verse mean if we resist evil in the earthly realm we receive damnation? In other words, in cases where the evil is vested in government, the idea that we are no longer to resist this evil is ludicrous.

    Paul is telling us we must not resist the righteous power of God - whether it is manifested in the heavenlies or in various earthly sectors - including righteous government.

    When Pilate and Herod give Jesus an order to speak, Christ resists their orders and remains silent (Matthew 27:13, Luke 23:7). When Paul has been beaten illegally by evil men within the Roman government, he refuses their command to come out of the jail and defiantly says "...let them come themselves and fetch us out." (Acts 16:37). That's not resisting?

    When Peter is assisted in a jail-break by an angel, how is that obeying the government? (Acts 12:7). Did the Apostle "receive damnation" because he didn't ask the evil rulers 'Can I go now?' The writer of Hebrews tells his readers "ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin" (Hebrews 12:4). That firmly implies the Christians were appropriately resisting the evil, but every instance of that resistance ending in bloodshed occurs at the hands of the authorities. Whom were they resisting? The Evil Authority.

    When Stephen was murdered, it was the religious leadership of the Jews that "set up false witnesses" to justify their unlawful crime. They even brought him before the high priest who was in agreement with the heinous killing of the young Christian (Acts 6:13, 7:1, 15). When criminal elements have a position of control and authority within the government, believers have an obligation to resist them--not to twist the scriptures into justification for compliance with an ungodly government. In Damascus, the Jews that had authority under the governmental edict establishing their position (John 11:48) sought to murder Saul (Acts 9:23). Saul escaped over the wall as he left Damascus. That sounds like resistance to me.

    Satan is a merchandiser (Ezekiel 28:16), a trafficker (Ezekiel 28:18). Satan offered all the kingdoms of the world to Jesus in the wilderness:

    “Again, the devil taketh [Jesus] up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me” (Matthew 4:8, 9).

    The merchants, the kings of the earth, sell souls of men (Revelation 18:11-13). They also sell the persons of men (Ezekiel 27:8); person = Latin persona = status; reputation; an actor’s mask. These rich men are deceitful; they buy the poor and needy and they use false balances, balances of deceit (Amos 8:4-6; Micah 6:10-12; Hosea 12:7). They love to oppress (Amos 2:6). Merchants and sellers violate the sabbath (Nehemiah 13:15-20). The deeds of the rich are wicked (Micah 2:1-9).

    Anyone who engages in commerce (profiteering; pursuit of mammon) comes under Caesar's jurisdiction (“Caesar” = ungodly government). The merchants, the rich men of the earth, the great men of the earth, are identified with the ungodly authority:

    “The kings set themselves, and the rulers take counsel against the Lord and his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us” (Psalm 2:2, 3).

    “Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.... Lord, behold their threatenings...” (Acts 4:25, 26, 29).

    “Israel hath cast off the thing that is good: the enemy shall pursue him. They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off” (Hosea 8:3, 4).

    This is where many stumble with the reality that there is a counterfeit “authority” seeking our obeisance! Satan said, “I will be like the most High” (Isaiah 14:14).

    It is Satan’s “higher power” which is behind the merchants, the rich men of the earth, the present temporal “governing authorities.”

    Satan is “the god of this world” (II Corinthians 4:4), “this present evil world” (Galatians 1:4); there is no Godly ordination there.

    We have a choice as to which purported authority we submit to and therefore “serve.” God’s authority is above all the “government institutions” of men.

    Why does God “allow” ungodly “governments?” What is the purpose of man's law? It is God's rod of correction. God uses man's law to chasten his people. God uses heathens to chasten his people.

    We are to place ourselves under God’s jurisdiction, living in God’s kingdom. And we're not going to be perfect, we may fall and do wrong, but we are to check everything that we're doing. And if we do something that's against God's Word, we repent immediately to renew our mind. That's how we renew our mind, by repenting to the King and saying, "I'm sorry. I did not want to do that. It's a habit, it's the way that I learned in the world. Help break me of that." And he does help us if our heart is truly after him. And if you don't repent, he has the natural man right there as a rod of correction for you, and that's what man's codes, rules and regulations are all about.

    If we be without chastisement, we would not be his sons. But he loves us, so God uses a rod of correction to wake the sleeping disciple and get him back on course.

    Proverbs 22:15, "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."

    Proverbs 23:13, "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die."
    Of course! So the obvious question is: What "things" of Caesar's are you partaking of, which would require such a "rendering"? Recall also that no man can serve two masters, and such a double-minded man is unstable in all his ways.

    Re: the OP, abortion may be legal, but it is not Lawful. So why are you participating in Caesar's voter franchise?
     
  4. Render unto Caesar those things that are his...that relate to his authority. Obey the laws, be a good citizen...etc That is godly behavior. As Paul showed us that He used his Roman citizenship to advance the gospel, so should we and be good law abiding citizens in as much as it is in our power.
     
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  5. #25 sojourner4Christ, May 18, 2014
    Last edited: May 19, 2014
    Again, of course! You must make the decision as to which authority you will obey. Therefore, 'Choose wisely, grasshopper.'
    Really? Caesar's law says abortion is legal. (So much for "good citizen.") If I protest within so many feet of the abortion facility, I can be arrested and imprisoned. (So much for "godly behavior.")

    This is a call to action; where is your line in the sand? How long can you continue sitting on that fence, serving two masters, before you split your pants?
    BTW, the meaning of "citizen" then is not equivalent to "citizenship" today.
    We have no power outside of Christ. Therefore, we must cease looking to the image, to Caesar, for that power.
     
  6. Well I am sure who I serve...The Lord Jesus Christ.....:D
    ...not the "accuser".....:eek:
     
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  7. Ya know, mitspa, it's said that patience is a virtue; it's one that I'd like to permanently add to my toolbox. However, you haven't answered the questions posted, but instead continue to revert to beating that tired "accuser" drum diversion. Some would think, after 2,000+ posts here, even in this Boy's Club, you might be interested in walking in true liberty, in the truth, and thus be willing to put down vain imaginations. Please tell us it is so.
     
  8. More accusations? :eek:..... ok what is it that you need to know? :)
     
  9. #29 sojourner4Christ, May 19, 2014
    Last edited: May 19, 2014
    My responsibility is not to the crowd but to the cloud (of witnesses), while avoiding the diaprax (dialectic praxis; consensus).

    In any case, we now see that our walk is not as easy as tossing out a Romans 13 passage in the hopes of keeping our 4-wheel-drive jeeps, credit cards, and creamed coffees.

    We also see the deception of the U.S. constitution. And we see why murder/abortion is the law of the (Caesarian) land, ad nauseum, as per the OP.

    Each shall reap what each has sown.
     
  10. So whats your point?..of course the world is corrupt! What do you expect? Getting all mad a throwing a religious fit don't help anything!
     
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  11. No one's "thrown a religious fit" yet (although that last post of yours is borderline...). Are you "mad" enough to DO something about it? Or just keep talking about it?

    Info is has been put out there. For example, God does not appear in what most would consider their founding document (i.e. the U.S. constitution). Of course, virtually no one has actually READ "their" constitution. So there must be a malevolent force acting upon people to cause them to be blinded in this area, for them to suffer for the wrong thing.

    In any case, will you continue to participate in the voter franchise i. e. will you continue to cast a ballot, as per the godless constitution?
     
  12. Look if you want to throw a big religious fit and think that helps you can..but I go into the world and set a godly example with my actions and in the Power of Gods Spirit.
     
  13. #33 sojourner4Christ, May 19, 2014
    Last edited: May 19, 2014
    It is important to understand that the purpose of God allowing "Caesar" (i. e. ungodly government) to be in power is to test and prove his children, to see if they will keep the Laws of God or the laws of the heathen (Judges 2:21; 3:4).
    Fair enough, so I then asked you this question:

    "In any case, will you continue to participate in the voter franchise i. e. will you continue to cast a ballot, as per the godless constitution?"

    And your reply was:
    But you still have not answered the question.
     
  14. Well I refused to vote in the last Presidential election because they nominated a godless Mormon to represent us, but I do know many good local and God fearing folks who will receive my support. I even know a state senator that is godly.
     
  15. I am behind you 100% on that one. And although the system is corrupt and unredeemable from its inception, God does have his people everywhere.
     
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  16. No one needs to “prophesy” about what is evident to all. The takedown of the USA is imminent, judgment being meted out as we speak. The pretexts for control will continue, with no single “crisis” being the deciding factor but merely another domino in the overall agenda. America, with its increasing de facto police state, will continue to devolve and rot from within.

    Why?

    From the OP:

    We have answered this portion of the question. In examining the constitution of the USA, we saw that it expressly omits God!

    Again, from the OP:

    The answer is, the Godly “Christians” have adopted the ungodly “American values” i.e. the born again believers have accepted the rule of the State rather than the rule of Christ.

    Compromising with temporal powers can never lead to redemption. Most "Christians" have accepted the unrighteous code of the State, instead of insisting that the State follow the Laws of Almighty God. There is a world of difference between the two, between Law and force. The kingdoms of this world use force, for there is no love in what they do. Whereas the kingdom of God uses Law, for love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:8).

    Again, from the OP:

    What we are doing, via our much “legally speaking”, is, we are casting aside God’s Law for man’s codes, rules, and regulations. “Legal” is not equivalent to Lawful; “legal” is only the “color of law” - it is not THE LAW.

    There is only one lawgiver (James 4:12). This one lawgiver is the Lord (Isaiah 33:22). Man does not have authority to make laws, but only the authority to make ‘ordinances’ which enforce Laws already in existence, which are the Laws of God. To obey the so-called ‘laws’ conjured up by the worldly governing authorities is to set aside the gospel of our Lord and place oneself under a separate government, other than his.

    Bondmen of Christ are not citizens of any country on this earth, our citizenship is in heaven, and so our first loyalty is to God, not "our" country (Ephesians 2:19, Philippians 3:20). Ours is a better, heavenly country (Hebrews 11:16).

    The whole duty of man is to live by God's commandments (Ecclesiastes 12:13), not man's commandments which turn from the Truth (Mark 7:7, Colossians 2:20-22, Titus 1:14). What duty is there to a servant of Christ except to fulfil God's Law (Romans 13:8)? When we pray, we pray to do our Father’s Will, not man’s will (Matthew 6:10, Luke 11:2). God rewards those who place his Laws above man-made laws (Exodus 1:17,20). We are even instructed to avoid going to courts of law before the unjust and unbelievers (1 Corinthians 6:1-8). How incredible that the just would go before the unjust for justice! Therein no blessings are found:

    Psalms 1:1, "Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly."

    The kings and rulers of the earth are against the Lord, and against his anointed (Psalm 2:2). Governments frame mischief and sin through their laws:

    Psalms 94:20, "Shall the throne of iniquity have fellowship with thee, which frameth mischief by a law?"

    Isaiah 10:1-2, "Woe unto them that prescribe grievous laws and take away the right from the poor."

    When a government is ungodly, and people trust in that government, then God will punish those who trust in that government and obey their laws (Jeremiah 15:4; 46:25, 2 Kings 21:11-12, Isaiah 9:16, Ezekiel 11:10-12, Micah 6:13,16). The people will be cursed for trusting in man (Jeremiah 17:5, Hosea 10:13). It is better to trust in the Lord, than to put confidence in man and governments (Psalm 118:8-9). We are told not to put our trust in human governments (Psalm 146:3). We are commanded to "turn away" from those with certain characteristics (2 Timothy 3:2-5), and governing authorities possess most of these said characteristics! Governing authorities are "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away" (2 Timothy 3:5). So we are to turn away from governing authorities with these characteristics. They proclaim their own power (force), which becomes a 'law' unto itself. The law is made for evil-doers, not for the righteous (1 Timothy 1:9-10). Therefore, we are to obey God's Law, and whatever laws that man creates are irrelevant to us.

    Esther 3:8, "And Haman (the highest prince in the kingdom of the Medes and the Persians) said unto king Ahasuerus (the king of the Medes and the Persians who reigned from India to Ethiopia), There is a certain people (people who were obedient to God's Laws) scattered abroad and dispersed among the people in all the provinces of thy kingdom; and their laws are diverse from all people; neither keep they the king's laws..."

    As we can see, God's children were following God's Law, which were diverse from the government's law, and his children did not keep the government's law! When one reads the book of Esther, one will see how God protected his children when they followed his law and disregarded the government's law. One cannot obey both laws, because one cannot serve two masters.

    What did Jesus teach about the governments of men? Let us examine three parallel Gospel accounts. He himself explained:

    Matthew 20:25, "...Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. "

    Mark 10:42, "...they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them."

    Luke 22:25, "...The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors."

    By comparing these three parallel verses, Jesus stated the fact that the governing authorities (princes, rulers, kings) exercise authority over the Gentiles (those who do not believe in God). Note that the term "Gentiles" here cannot mean "Gentile Christians", because Jesus had not yet died to confirm the New Testament, and "Christianity" was not yet in existence. All the apostles were Jews, and Jesus commanded them not to preach to the Gentiles (Matthew 10:5-6). The Gentiles were the enemy of Christ at this point (Matthew 20:19; Mark 10:33, Luke 18:32). The Gospel was not preached to the Gentiles until at least 10 years after the resurrection of Jesus (Acts 9:15; 10:45; 11:1,18; 13:42,46-48).

    Notice what Jesus says next. Does he say that His people will have other men rule over them? Most definitely not!

    Matthew 20:26, "But it shall not be so among you:"

    Mark 10:43, "But so shall it not be among you:"

    Luke 22:26, "But ye shall not be so:"

    Jesus said we shall not have leaders exercise authority over us like they do over the gentiles. We shall not be subject to governing authorities unless those in "power" are servants of God and His people. Read what Jesus said after he told his disciples that earthly princes, rulers, and kings will not have authority over His chosen:

    Matthew 20:26-27, "…but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:"

    Mark 10:43-44, "…but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all."

    Luke 22:26, "...but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve."

    As we see, Jesus does not want man to have authority over man! He commanded that whoever is the chiefest and greatest among men, will be the servant of all. Unlike human governments which make their chief ruler the dictator of all. Man was not created to rule other men, but was given dominion over the creatures of the earth. This is confirmed in the very first chapter of the Bible, when God created the earth. When our Father created the earth. When he first created man, He commanded, "...let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth" (Genesis 1:26,28). Only God has dominion over man. Man is not subject to any other man. Man is ruled by Law, not by the will of man.

    Now, Jesus was not condemning all authority, as is clear from the fact that Jesus himself exercised authority over his disciples and others (Matthew 11:27; 23:10; 28:18, John 13:13), and expected his disciples to exercise authority as leaders of his congregation (Matthew 16:19; 18:17; 24:45-47; 25: 21,23, Luke 19:17,19). What sort of authority then was Jesus condemning in this passage? What difference was there between the authority of the gentile ruler and that of himself and his apostles? Surely this, that the latter rested on spiritual ascendancy and was exercised only over those who willingly submitted to it, whereas the former was exercised over all men indiscriminately whether they liked it or not, and for this reason involved the use of the sanctions of physical force and penalties. There can be no doubt that it was this fact that caused Jesus to tell his disciples: "It is not so among you."

    When an earthly government believes it is "god walking on the earth," it has no true dominion (authority) but only force, and has fallen from the Grace of Almighty God. Dominion and force are opposed to one another. Force is false power.

    Matthew 23:10, "Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."

    Remember, the reason Jesus Christ was crucified was because the governing "authorities" at that time were afraid that they were going to lose their "place and nation," their political power, if the people believed on Jesus (John 11:47-48).
     
  17. 1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
    56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

    The Gospel is the POWER OF GOD unto our deliverance from this world....all else is vanity!
     
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  18. I am anti-abortion both for religious and secular reasons. My religious reason is that all life is sacred. My secular reason is that all men and women should be free to pursue the path they have chosen, provided that they don't harm others by doing it. If an embryo or fetus is aborted, he is no longer free to choose anything. Therefore, abortion is as wrong as murder, since it destroys the freedom of a certain group of people (embryos and fetuses are people).

    I must say that in my opinion no country should be a theocracy. I would like to live in a country in which freedom of religion and freedom of expression are more important than the particular values of a certain faith. Didn't Christ himself advocat for a secular state when he said: "my kingdom is not of this world"?
     
  19. The word "liberty" to some means freedom from God and any standard given by God. "Liberty" to others is freedom to worship Our God as He has shown us in the scriptures.
     
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  20. Liberty is not bad in principle. As far as I know, no passage of the New Testament instructs us to limit other people's freedom for the sake of our Gospel. On the contrary, there are a lot of passages supporting the exact opposite. Abortion is still wrong, though, because it destroys the freedom of the unborn children.
     

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