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A Sensitive Topic...

Discussion in 'Evangelism' started by Onehope, Feb 23, 2014.

  1. Hey Guys... so recently I was on a site (can't remember the name) that was anti-abortion - which I am myself. But as I was reading down the comments there was one that really stuck with me. The man said, "As a Christian I am against abortion and would discourage people form it, but as an American I am for women's rights to choose whether or not they want to go through with it." This comment completely perplexed me. I was always of the notion that American values, i.e., the Constitution of the United States, the Bill of Rights were riding right along the same values of Christianity... am I wrong in seeing this? To my understanding the whole reason abortion became a debate, legally speaking, is the part that says "Every man is given these inalienable rights: the right to LIFE, freedom, and the pursuit of happiness." As you might have guessed the question that was on everyone's mind in 1973, during the Supreme Court trial of Roe vs. Wade, was this... is the unborn child (aka fetus) technically alive?

    My answer would be yes... the baby is most definitely alive, whether or not he/she is breathing. But my question to you guys is do you think that American values and Christian values are borderline the same or dramatically different?
  2. The downfall of America is because they're choosing as a society to abandon God's way. They say everything is for freedom but what they're saying is freedom from God. The Constitution of the United States, the Bill or Rights, and the Declaration of Independence are as close to divinely written as possible. As such, judges are declaring anything and everything "unconstitutional" to foster their liberal agenda while silencing God fearing people. Congress is inept beyond measure and the president is ruling by executive order. Nothing is as it should be. As for a "christian" to say they're against abortion and yet states that a woman has the "right" to choose is lukewarm and trying to serve two masters. God will only vomit them out. We are, right now, no longer under God's protection and things are going to get really bad - they already are - real soon.
    CCW95A likes this.
  3. Yes, Abdicate, history is repeating itself in America, unfortunately. As human nature goes, people are more inclined to the man that promises a few free things and "benefits" without the typical means of earning it. The whole Republican vs. Democrat is, in all honesty, a sad joke. If people we're truly living under the Constitution there wouldn't be parties... only the people that kept their oaths and the people that didn't - who would later be on trial for possible prison-time.
  4. Wow Abdicate, your post could not be more spot on(y) Law by law, decision by decision by our elected officials, the devil is slowly picking apart this nation, all in the name of freedom; yet we as Christians are also being picked apart, but we cannot use 'freedom' anymore is seems to stick up for ourselves.

    As for the abortion comment, Abdicate is spot on, we cannot serve two masters. Either we strive to fully serve God or get stuck serving man; hence two masters. God's laws trump man's laws, always have always will. I used to think the same way the guy that made the comment about abortion in relation to God and then as an American, it just doesn't make sense though and I had to choose, which I obviously chose God and I will every time!
    God is Love likes this.
  5. Thanks Brian.
    Apologia likes this.
  6. I am currently reading through the book of Acts again and thought this was appropriate for this thread; it is when Peter is addressing the crowd about speaking in tongues and being baptized, "With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” (Acts 2:40-41)
  7. #7 sojourner4Christ, May 16, 2014
    Last edited: May 16, 2014
    Trying to serve two masters, indeed!

    This thread is spot-on, with one notable exception. This exception is responsible for the current state-of-affairs with the ongoing takedown of the USA.
    The founders of America (the Puritans) intended to establish a new world. They intended to create a "city on a hill," a society governed by God’s Law, giving glory to God, and spreading the gospel across the globe. The original intent of the settlers and founders of the New World was to form a Godly nation. In order to make sure that the Government would foster Christ’s teachings and not atheism, it was prohibited for any but the followers of Christ to hold political office. (If you want to create a Godly society, such a requirement only makes sense).


    The Founders thought more of the idea of a secular state than how to please God. The first criteria for a Christian civil government is a recognition of God as sovereign. Not only is Christ not recognized in the Constitution, there is no hint of God at all. The sovereign recognized in the Constitution is not God, it is the people, ala "We the people..." The Constitution is a covenant but not with God.

    The Founding Fathers apostatized from the Godly civil covenants of their and our forefathers. When they rejected God, they also rejected God's law. People can talk all they want to about a Christian Constitution, but they will never be able to get around the fact that God is not even mentioned in it. True, they set up a Constitutional set of laws, but what if someone decides that they no longer reflect the law of the people? What is left is no law at all but for those with power to enforce what they consider the will of the people.

    To deny God as sovereign leaves man in charge, but which man? Who represents the people? Who will declare the law? That is the struggle of our nation and has resulted in millions of deaths (abortion) and economic confiscation and control on a rate that would have made ancient dictatorships look like tax havens. The Constitution was a rejection of the rule of God for the rule of man.

    Scripture tells us to test people, to see if they are of God or not.

    1 John 4:1, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

    This only makes sense, when one is sincerely interested in associating with godly people, while avoiding the contamination and influence of ungodly men.

    The key, however, to the rejection of the rule of God was Article VI, Clause 3, "The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several state Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

    The Constitution was a rebellion against Christ and his authority over the nation, replacing it with the rule of man. The Bible warns us, "Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?" (Isaiah 2:22).

    An objection is that the Constitution contains Christian principles and therefore is a sort of halfway covenant. As evidence of this, they may offer that the Constitution presents us with a system of divided authority and diffused powers. Even covenant-breaking historians would admit that Christian principles exist within the Constitution while denying that it is a Christian covenant. The problem with this is that every government that exists contains Christian principles. In fact, any truth or correct morality is a Christian principle. All true and good principles are Christian principles because this universe is created and governed by the true and living God who has revealed himself in the Bible. Islamic governments contain many Biblical principles, such as capital punishment. That does not, however, save them from condemnation as apostate covenants. We must return to the question, what sort of Christian principles constitute a Christian government and what make an apostate government? The Biblical covenant model is the Biblical model and therefore the only proper judge of whether or not a state is a covenant-keeping one.

    In Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488 (1961), the United States Supreme Court holds that the state of Maryland can not require applicants for public office to swear that they believed in the existence of God. The court unanimously rules that a religious test violates the Establishment Clause. This verifies that the U.S. Constitution allows Atheists to rule and make laws for bondservants of Christ!

    In addition, the Constitution states: ""Congress shall make no law regarding an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" (First Amendment).

    Do you realize that the Constitution allows everybody to freely worship any god they choose to? This is one of the greatest abominations to God.

    Old Testament Israel had this same exact law also, and God would punish them whenever they enacted this law. Whenever people would worship other gods in his country, he would command them to tear down their temples and idols. If they refused, God would always punish his people. Even if there was a mixture of people worshipping the True God and people worshipping false gods, this was an abomination also, as his people are not to mix the two. God even commanded his people to go to neighboring countries of the heathen and tear down their temples and idols.

    The truth is, the freedom of religion is an abomination to God. Man only has the "right" to worship Almighty God. To be free to worship any other god or partake of any other religion is an abomination to him, and violates the first Two Commandments:

    Exodus 20:3-5, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:"

    If the U.S. Constitution is a godly piece of paper, why does is allow the very thing that God condemns throughout his Holy Scripture?

    You hear the phrase, "The Constitution is the Supreme Law of the land." That's not what the Word of God says, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Genesis 1:1). Did the Constitution create the heaven and the earth? So how could it be the law of the land? Only he who creates, God, is the Law of the land. "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist" (Colossians 1:17). Christ is before the Constitution, and by Jesus, not the Constitution, all things consist.

    John 1:3, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

    Colossians 1:16, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"

    All things were created by him and for him, not "by the people, and for the people" (Democracy); not for our enjoyment, not for our wants. We were created for God.

    The sole purpose of constitutions is to free human beings from God's Law in order to chain them to the morality of the State dictated in its codes, rules, regulations, ordinances, statutes, public policies, executive orders, laws, etc. All constitutions were created by the fallen reason of the natural man, and are molded by the "reasonable interpretation" of human beings wearing black robes. Private rights are always weighed against the greater public good and are regulated by the "police power".

    Those who thus rely upon the words of any constitution for support are leaning upon a broken reed; and their sense of security is a false one. The Constitution does not protect persons or property against unjust invasion, or prevent government control and regulation of business. After all, this depends on the interpretations and applications of the courts. Constitutional law is the morality of fascism and comes from the vain imaginations of men. It is a code, rule, or regulation for the dead thing it brings into being. Corporations are dead, at law. The United States is a Federal corporation. Thus, the United States is a dead thing.

    “We are under a Constitution, but the Constitution is what the judges say it is.” Charles Evans Hughes, Supreme Court Justice, in Dictionary of American Maxims (1955), p. 88.

    We don't find Christ there, it's men ruling other men, giving benefits to one another. And when the natural man gives a benefit to you, there's a duty attached to it. There's no “freely” giving (Matthew 10:8) and expecting nothing in return, as scripture tells us. We are not to touch the unclean thing (2 Corinthians 6:17), and the US Constitution is an unclean thing, based upon selfishness and commerce.

    For over two hundred years, we have been witness to apostasy from the Godly covenants of the Puritans. This project succeeded through the Constitution and the Civil War and Reconstruction. Our nation has rejected Christ and His rule over us. We must pay heed to the warning of Jeremiah 12:17, "But if they will not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation, saith the LORD." In the meantime, the battle is not over. We can still repent and turn to God.

    The U.S. Constitution is just a piece of paper with signatures on it. And you know what a piece of paper with signatures is: a contract -- something that can be re-negotiated and altered at any time.
  8. Jesus is Lord over all things to me, including my vote and my views on civil matters.
    Apologia likes this.
  9. #9 sojourner4Christ, May 16, 2014
    Last edited: May 16, 2014
    Ah, yes, your appearance here was anticipated.

    We've already talked about one form of mind control, wherein a deceived majority fiercely seek to identify themselves with the things of the world. Let's take a look at another.
    You've just indicated that he is not "Lord over all things to [you]" Why? Because you're serving two masters, and such double-mindedness is always the result.

    Democracy is not a scriptural principle for God’s people. Democracy is a deceitful word. Every man believes he has a right in the outcome of the destiny of society. This is a myth. If God directs men to move in a way that’s led by God, then no vote can change the Will of God. The "voter registration" is secular man’s faulty reasoning that he, in and of himself, can save all, if you just give him enough power, more money, more…more…more…and still more. As soon as you put your "X" on that ballot and vote for some politician, you become part of the world, you voted to be ordered around. The politician needs your consent to crack a whip over your head and make you feel like the animal that you have partaken of. You are now part of the zoo of humanity.

    When you elect people to tell you how to live and how things should be done, then you give up that authority that the Lord has given you and you put it in the hands of the heathen. You're choosing to have evil men rule over you rather than Almighty God who created you. When elections come up, people usually choose between "the lesser of two evils.” They always decide between "the lesser of two evils." Think about that. We have to remember that there is no such thing as the lesser of two evils. Evil is evil (James 2:10). Therefore, when somebody votes between the lesser of two evils, they are still voting for evil. Period.

    Law is not based on a popular vote. It never has been and never can be. Bondmen of Christ cannot vote because that would be violence or force. We are not into using force, you cannot force the Kingdom of God, you cannot force people to love, you cannot force your love on others, you cannot force people to be free, because that requires violence to enforce it. And "the weapons of our warfare are not carnal" (2 Corinthians 10:4).

    In the Old Testament, the people "voted" to kill Joshua and Caleb (Numbers 14:10). Right after they voted, God said, "...How long will this people provoke me? ...I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them," (Numbers 14:11-12), but Moses asked for mercy and God pardoned their evil ways. In the New Testament, during the trial of Christ Jesus, Pontius Pilate let the people "vote" between Barabbas and Jesus as to who they wanted set free (Matthew 27:17). The Pharisees whispered lies in the people's ears so they would vote the way they wanted them to vote. And that's the same thing that's going on today with voting; it's all manipulated by those who have the power to sway people. This "voting privilege" crucified our Lord!

    Another example is in 1 Samuel 8. God's people were ruled directly by God at this time, but the people "voted" to be ruled by a human king instead of God, just like the heathen nations (1 Samuel 8:4-5,20). Right after they "voted", "the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them" (1 Samuel 8:7). Israel was now a democracy, and their voting privilege kicked God out of their country.

    There is a tendency on the part of many to assume that if the vast majority of Christians hold a certain belief, then it must be right. Not necessarily so. Truth is not determined by majority vote, but by the Word itself. God's people should not look to "democratic principles" for Truth, but to God.

    Democracy: "That form of government where the people rule. But the multitude cannot actually rule: An unorganic democracy…naturally becomes a one-man government. The basis of the democracy is equality…but equality itself is no guarantee for liberty, nor does equality constitute liberty. Absolute democracy existed in antiquity and the middle ages: they have never endured for any length of time. And absolute democracy is anything rather than a convertible term for liberty." Bouvier’s Law Dictionary , 1914.

    The following definition is taken from a 156 page book officially compiled and issued by the U.S. War Department on November 30, 1928, setting forth the truthful definition of Democracy. This definition was published by the authority of the United States Government. This precise and scholarly definition of Democracy is carefully considered as a proper guide for U.S. soldiers and U.S. citizens by the Chief of Staff of the United States Army. This definition takes precedence over any "definition" that may be found in the present commercial dictionaries which have suffered periodical modification to please the powers in office.

    Democracy: "A government of the masses. Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of direct expression. Results in mobacracy. Attitude toward property is communistic, negating property rights. Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate whether it be based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequence. Results in demagogism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy. Democracy is the direct rule of the people and has been repeatedly tried without success." Citizenship, Training Manual No. 2000-25, War Department, Washington, November 30, 1928, prepared under direction of the Chief of Staff, [A.G. 014.33 (4-28-28).], By order of the Secretary of War: Official: Lutzwahl, Major General, The Adjutant General, C.P. Summerall, Major General, Chief of Staff.

    In conclusion, voting is very unscriptural.

  10. America was made for one reason... be used by God to give birth to Israel! Now that that's done (for which we were richly blessed) our days are numbered and it shows...
  11. That's an astute observation; indeed, America was. Even a cursory examination of the documented facts reveals that (unsaved) Jewry is the dominant malevolent force behind the current state-of-affairs.

    And if that is true, then it follows that America was set up, from the onset, to take the fall - to be the nation chosen, in its downfall , to lead the remainder of the world into the merchant's one-world construct i. e. "new world order"/global marketplace. It's "America, destroyed by design."
  12. That's not what I meant. God rose up America so He could use them to bring about the nation of Israel fulfilling a lot of prophecies.
  13. Yep, same diff. God uses the ungodly as his rod of correction.
  14. So now voting according to ones conscience, is a sin!....lol .. I drink coffee too..:rolleyes:
  15. So is that why you have come to the forum?
  16. There is no question that all the governments in the world, regardless of their political "flavor" are the result of mankinds alienation from God. That leaves only two choices, theocracy and anarchy. Since Our Lord has not returned yet, theocracy is pretty much out of the question (except under particular circumstances such as Mt. Athos), and anarchy does not appeal to many except for the seriously self reliant.

    Thus we have attempted democracy, and due to the evil nature of man, it has essentially fallen into fascism.
  17. "One's conscience"??? You have just proven my point.
  18. Good, don't care...:)
  19. True, but don't go making any prophecies!
  20. Only promises.

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