A Deeper Closer Look At Who Jesus Really Was

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by evangelist-77, Jul 14, 2012.

  1. Most Trinitarian Christians think Jesus was the Son of God,
    who always existed as God, the Second Person of the Trinity, but …

    “In the beginning was the Word (the Logos), and the Word was with God,
    and the Word was God. … And the Word became flesh (Jesus) and dwelt among us”(John 1:1,14)

    “… and His (Jesus’) name is called The Word of God.” (Revelation 19:13)

    Technically, Jesus Christ did NOT exist before the Word (the Logos) came to earth.
    Jesus (as man) had a beginning, while Jesus (as God) did not.
    The Word (the Logos) was the One who always existed, not Jesus Christ.

    From the Scriptures, we believe this Jesus was both God and man: “fully God and fully man”.

    Since He ascended physically to Heaven and sat down at the right hand of Father God
    (Mark 16:19, Hebrews 1:3), it is acceptable to say Jesus exists in Heaven now.

    “And behold, you (Mary) will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son,
    and shall call His name Jesus. … The Holy Spirit will come upon you,
    and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also,
    that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:31-35)

    Gabriel said to CALL the new baby “Jesus” and to CALL Him “the Son of God”.
    Gabriel did not say He WAS “Jesus” and “the Son of God”.
    IMO, no one called “the Son of God” existed before the Word (the Logos) came to earth.

    But, Jesus truly was the Son of God because His “father” was God the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35).

    “And behold, you (Mary) will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son” (Luke 1:31)
    “… do not be afraid to take to you (Joseph) Mary your wife,
    for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.” (Matthew 1:20-21)

    This sounds like a normal conception … so IMO, the Holy Spirit planted
    a male sperm next to Mary’s ovum, so a normal conception could take place.
    (This is preferable to thinking the Holy Spirit performed a “creative” miracle.)

    Now for the upsetting part for many (but it shouldn’t be) …

    The reason for God NOT allowing Joseph to be Jesus’ biological father
    was so his inherited sin nature would NOT be passed on to Jesus.

    Joseph and Mary both carried man's inherited sin nature, so IMO,
    man's sperm carries the sin nature, and not the blood (proof: Mary's involvement).

    This sacrificial Lamb of God had to be absolute perfection in every detail.
    Jesus was the ultimate, final, and perfect blood Sacrifice … the sacrificial Lamb of God.
    God being sacrificed to God makes the Almighty’s ingenious plan even more awesome!
     
  2. As is often the habit you put many theses in one post.
    Are we in agreement that Jesus is the 2nd person of the Triune God?
    Are we in agreement that there is one God who expresses Himself in three Persons?
    Are we in agreement that Jesus, being both God and man spent 30 some years on earth?
    Are we in agreement that this Jesus died to be a sacrifice to free us from the penalty of sin?
     
  3. Asterisks added and some text colouring removed.

    There are some scriptures that ought not be ignored IMNSHO.
    * John 17:5. makes it rather difficult to say that the one speaking, 'Jesus', was not pre existent. " And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." ESV.

    ** The conception of Jesus by the Holy Spirit can hardly be called 'normal'.
    I agree that Jesus could not carry the male traits imparted by human male sperm, however to say that there was any sperm present or used presupposes too much IMNSHO. Just how the biological mechanics involved worked is not and I guess never will be disclosed to mankind since Jesus' conception was a 1 off event, never to be repeated.
    To suppose or imply that there was a sperm cell of the Holy Spirit introduced to an ovum of Mary requires a carnality of the Holy Spirit that I am just not interested in, or prepared to consider; and neither should anyone else.
     
    covered_by_grace likes this.
  4. AMEN! Who do we think we are trying to fit the Almighty God into our egg-shaped boxes called the brain?!?!?! He is exactly who He says He is in His Word. "Who is man that He is mindful of him, the son of man that He cares for him? Ps. 8:4
     
  5. I agree completely Calvin!

    It seems to me that 77 is trying to explain a divine event in human terms and understanding which can not be done.

    The comment was............
    "Technically, Jesus Christ did NOT exist before the Word (the Logos) came to earth.
    Jesus (as man) had a beginning, while Jesus (as God) did not.

    The Word (the Logos) was the One who always existed, not Jesus Christ."

    That of course sounds logical but is in fact not true. JESUS (the man) did not exist before his incarnation but notice that CHRIST is his POSITION not his name. He is Jesus THE CHRIST. Christ is the 2nd person of the Trinity and as such was always with God.

    Personally I have no problem believing in a miracle of the virgin birth and I have no need to accept the idea of "a normal conception" but that is just me.

    Now, if we say that the "sin nature" is from the sperm and not the blood...........how do we explain the actions of Adam and Eve?

    Then we have this comment................
    "The reason for God NOT allowing Joseph to be Jesus’ biological father
    was so his inherited sin nature would NOT be passed on to Jesus."


    Not so! Jesus THE Christ was incarnated through the Holy Spirit so that He was in fact the God-Man. If Joseph had been His father, he COULD NOT HAVE BEEN GOD IN THE FLESH could he???
     
    covered_by_grace likes this.
  6. Perhaps I may answer all of you together.

    John 17:5 … why can’t this just be the Word (the Logos) speaking?
    He “became flesh”, so now He must be silent and not talk?

    IMO, the Holy Spirit created male sperm and placed it in Mary’s womb.
    By a normal conception I meant: male's sperm meets female's egg to conceive a human being.

    IMO, the male sperm carries man’s inherited sin nature (most people don’t believe in the latter).
    This was instituted by God after the Fall.

    I said: “The reason for God NOT allowing Joseph to be Jesus’ biological father
    was so his inherited sin nature would NOT be passed on to Jesus.”

    IMO, Jesus could have been the GOD-man even if Joseph was Jesus’ father.
    The Holy Spirit could have done a creative miracle to produce a very special fetus,
    i.e. Jesus still could have somehow been incarnated through the Holy Spirit.

    Re: CHRIST ... The Jews of that time believed “Son of God” and “Messiah” signified equality with God
    (John 1:41, John 4:25, Matthew 26:63. Also see Matthew 16:16 and John 20:31).
    Therefore, the Jews taught Messiah = Christ = Son of God.
    Also see Matt 27:43, Luke 22:70, Matt 14:33, Mark 1:1, Luke 4:41, John 1:34, Acts 8:37, Hebrews 4:14
     
  7. OK, so, IMNSHO trying to separate Jesus from the Logos is what the Psilanthropism heresy was all about.
    Some years back I wrote a computer program in which I planted some unseen subroutines and commands. These did not interfere with the program's operation and were inaccessible to all but me.

    We do not need to understand the nuts and bolts of the incarnation of the Logos, we are required simply to accept the truth that Jesus is the Christ of God and Lord and if we accept Him, He is our saviour.
    Now, you say:

    You are trying to separate Jesus from the Logos.....further demonstration of Psilanthropism.​

    Is this not limiting God's ability and sovereignty over His own creation? why did the Omnipotent Creator need a human sperm cell to kick start one of Mary's ovum? what did the creator use to bring Eve into existence? Adam didn't even have a spare ovum to donate to the project.......did that stop the Creator dead in His tracks?​

    [quote] IMO, the male sperm carries man’s inherited sin nature (most people don’t believe in the latter).
    This was instituted by God after the Fall.[/quote]​
    This is a way of reconciling the fact that Jesus was both divine and human is it not?​
    It might be the case, but then again it might not. Consider the outcome if a human ovum were to be stimulated into germination without the use of a sperm cell......scientists are working on this idea.​
    So hypothetically speaking, would we now have a sinless human being? I think not. firstly the thing would not be human and secondly, the only way that God Himself found to eradicate sin from the human race was though His Son's crucifixion and resurrection.​

    So, you know the mind of God with such clarity? Would it not be better to just believe the word of God that declares Jesus to be the Son of God? How could a Jesus bar Joseph be the son of God? No, the reason Joseph was not Jesus' father was because He was God's Son..the only begotten Son.​

    We are all allowed our opinions, but they must be subordinate to the word of God.​
    And indeed, Jesus was incarnated through the Holy Spirit just as Scripture declares!! Luke 1:35.​

    And you don't?......or what is your point here?

    Moderators/Admin please note that twice I have attempted to remove the extra quote codes that are separating quoted text, but the forum s/w seems intent on doing it's own thing.
     
    Major, KingJ and covered_by_grace says Amen and like this.
  8. Last I read man was created in His image not vice versa. Why do you try to make it the other way E-77? Who are you to set yourself up against the whole counsel of the Holy Word of God??? Stop spreading blasphemous lies!!
     
  9. I'm going to stir the pot just a little. A logical conclusion from the line of reasoning in this thread would be that if an ovum could be made to develop - and it might be as simple as splicing two ova together - we could bypass inherited sin and produce another pre-fall Adam or Eve. This could potentially exempt them from any need for a Savior. Of course, with the equivalent of 7 billion "serpents" to tempt them from the perfect will of God, I wouldn't anticipate much better success than the original sinless creation. And this, I think, points out the essential difference between the first and second Adam. Adam was made in the image of God, but was fully human. Jesus was conceived by God (in the incarnation) and was as fully divine as He was human.

    Here's another thought. Who ate the fruit first? It was Eve. Why then would we think that the ova doesn't "carry" original sin? I think God chose a woman to conceive the child because that's how He designed them, to carry, bear, and nurture children. They have wombs. Men don't.

    I'm not sure any of these thoughts are ultimately helpful to the subject, but perhaps it points to a certain futility in trying to figure out the exact mechanism by which Jesus was conceived, a mechanism the Bible doesn't describe in any detail, and drawing theological conclusions from that.
     
    Major and covered_by_grace say Amen and like this.
  10. That is the point. Leave the 'nuts and bolts' to the Lord, we should just enjoy salvation and fellowship with Him.
     
    Major and covered_by_grace say Amen and like this.
  11. Hey, if you guys 'n gals don't wish to take
    A deeper closer look at who Jesus really was
    it's okay with me!
     

  12. This is a way of reconciling the fact that Jesus was both divine and human is it not?​
    It might be the case, but then again it might not. Consider the outcome if a human ovum were to be stimulated into germination without the use of a sperm cell......scientists are working on this idea.​
    So hypothetically speaking, would we now have a sinless human being? I think not. firstly the thing would not be human and secondly, the only way that God Himself found to eradicate sin from the human race was though His Son's crucifixion and resurrection.​



    So, you know the mind of God with such clarity? Would it not be better to just believe the word of God that declares Jesus to be the Son of God? How could a Jesus bar Joseph be the son of God? No, the reason Joseph was not Jesus' father was because He was God's Son..the only begotten Son.​


    We are all allowed our opinions, but they must be subordinate to the word of God.​
    And indeed, Jesus was incarnated through the Holy Spirit just as Scripture declares!! Luke 1:35.​



    And you don't?......or what is your point here?

    Moderators/Admin please note that twice I have attempted to remove the extra quote codes that are separating quoted text, but the forum s/w seems intent on doing it's own thing.[/quote]
    With all due respect to you my friend.........your opinion is NOT what is the deciding factor here.

    Thanks to Rumley who has given something for you to consider..............

    "Who ate the fruit first? It was Eve. Why then would we think that the ova doesn't "carry" original sin? I think God chose a woman to conceive the child because that's how He designed them, to carry, bear, and nurture children. They have wombs. Men don't. "

    That pretty much sums it up to me.
     
  13. It's not that we aren't interested in taking a deeper look at Who Jesus really was, in fact, I would venture to say that everyone in this thread has sought to know Him better, has contemplated His nature and what it means to us, how we ought to relate to Him, etc. But, so far, it seems we are speculating on things we are not given to know, and trying to draw theological conclusions from those things. On other things, which are specifically adressed in Scripture, we appear to disagree, that is, based on our own desire to know Him more intimately and our studies to that end, we have come to different conclusions. Or, perhaps we have not clearly understood what you are trying to say.
     
  14. Although I have been a little sympathetic to the idea that the male sperm carries the 'Sin' gene, on reflection I find that for me, I must reject the idea 100%. Sperm is a physical 'thing'. Sin is a spiritual 'thing' that can and mostly does find expression in the physical world, but it is spiritual nonetheless. If there were a sin gene then pedophiles and homosexuals and serial killers......(where does the list end?) would claim that they are the way they are because of inherent genetic programming and that they are as psychologically well integrated as anyone else.
    So, with that said, we maybe can get back on topic.

    Perhaps the way to reconcile the mystery surrounding Jesus' nature might lie in understanding/embracing the idea that contrary to our natural self image, the physical is just a temporary phase and that though we had a definable beginning, our true existence or being is to be without end; be it in the eternal BBQ or be it a joyous and meaningful future with the Saviour. Psa 103:13,14,15,16,17,18.
    The eternal LOGOS took the form of a flower to talk to all the other flowers and returned to His place to prepare a place for the flowers that listened to His message.
     
    Major likes this.
  15. It was presented merely as a matter of interest, but of very little importance.
    And I believe most of you understood what I was postulating.
     
  16. What blows my mind is how God manages to give animals instincts,
    which really are incredibly important information for their survival.
    God can do ANYTHING that He desires to do.
    Give your wife some hope ... tell her that He could turn you into solid gold.
    No, let's be more specific ... the Word/Logos (who became Jesus) could.

    Guess, you might want to delete the next 3 posts.
     
  17. God gave animals instinct because He did not give them the ability to "Reason".
     

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