1John 3:9 - What does it mean?

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by Steve Amato, May 23, 2015.

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  1. No man can crucify himself . an act of physical impossibility .
    How then was Jesus crucified?
    By the will of God.
    By the Word of God ,
    By the power of God.
    and albeit wicked men by their own will did it .
    They did so in fullfilment of the scriptures.
    "sin must come,but woe to them by whom it comes"
    How then are we crucified? ".....with Christ"
    By the will of God ,the Word of God and the power of God . It is an act of faith believing in the work of Christ.
    Who was crucified for our sins .
    "They who are Christs have crucified the flesh with the lusts thereof "
    The struggle of Paul is often quoted to our 'comfort' (?) but never the last part of it "But thanks be unto God who GIVES us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ"
    The struggle I believe is that we still want to 'live' when God would have us die in Christ be buried with Christ and rise again a new creation in Christ .
    But I like the thrust of the OP . Though I would argue against the general practice of denigrating the English translations .
    For John says we shall not sin....................which is the main emphasis of the passage as the OP rightly pointed out .
    "But IF we sin............" is not a get out clause and an excuse for sin. and where many emphasise IF we sin.
    But its an IF , THEN we have an advocate with the Father........
    "If we walk in the light as he is in the light then we have fellowship one with the other and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin"
    As the blood of the natural body continually circulates around the body purifying and cleansing it from all that would do it harm.
    So then as we abide in Christ and walk in the light and have fellowship one with the other then also the blood of Jesus Christ continually cleanse the body from all sin.
    The body of Christ is a living organism as it were and our life in Christ and part of that body not only has a function but also ministers to each and each other as the Lord sees fit .
    In Hebrews Paul speaks about under the old covenant the blood of bulls and goats could not put away sin and that therefore there was always a rememberance or concience of sin . But the blood of Jesus cleans the concience before God.
    Indeed as the blood of Abel spoke to God of justice recompence and the sin of Caine .
    So then is it not written that we come to the blood that speaks of better things than the blood of Abel?
    For in a courtroom there are witnesses who speak on your behalf . So then does the blood of Jesus speak on our behalf of sin already judged . Of mercy and forgiveness and an acceptable sacrifice .It speaks of adoption, acceptance, righteousness and the justice and glory of God .
    Do we not stand before God ?
    and when does that precious blood not speak?
    Does not the Lord for ever make intercession for us?
    Is he not a "high priest for ever........" (Hebrews)
    Not in the tabernacle made with hands but in that which was made by God.
    Then I say even as the tabernacle made with hands was 'clothed ' with the white linen of righteousness round about .
    Then so are we clothed with the righteousness of Christ .
    and even as the silver foundation of the holy place and the holy of Holy spoke of the redemption and the purchased possession , so then are we a purchased possession .Twice Gods . First by creation and second by redemption and new birth.
    The devil would parade our sins before us and hope to hinder our worship of God and to come boldly into the presence of God .
    But we are COUNTED righteous before God because of Jesus . Or HIS righteousness is imputed to us.
    It is then that righteousness is imparted to us by the Holy Spirit and then we in practice do works of righteousness by and through Him who enables us .
    It should not then be IF we sin. But more 'if' we sin.
    like the folly of a wise man is like a fly in the ointment .
    "Ye fathers ye know Him who is from the beginning "
    That is to say then the Creator of all things .
    I would argue that if we do know Him in any measure "who is from the beginning ."
    Not only will we understand we did not create ourselves but that also we are a new creation in Christ Jesus and "old things have passed away and behold all things have become new"
    I would further state that the church had better repent of its unbelief of the book of genesis and stop compromising with the world about it .
    For how can we know Him who is from the beginning if we do not believe the book of beginnings?
    and if we do not believe God who spoke in the beginning .Will we n ot also believe the modern day serpent ? and learn nothing from what was at the beginning?
    Surely repentance must or does include the reversal of the same error that man committed in the beginning ?
    In truth a tree will stand as long as its roots are deep enough no matter what storms may come .
    Are we not or should be rooted and grounded in God ?
    are we not as trees planted by the rivers of living water?
    Do not then those same waters flow up in and through us ?
    If you cut the top of a tree off .Water will literally bubble up like a mini fountain.
    Then if our roots our rooted in Him who is "from the beginning" nothing in this world will move us or beguile us .
    "little children your sins are forgiven and ye know the father ......." 1John.
    Little children can be deceived .
    There is coming a day when "if it was possible even the very elect would be deceived......."
    Such subtlety and deceit that it will be only by the Holy Spirit we will be able to discern the difference between the true and the false .
    In truth it is always by Him who leadeth us into all truth that we do so any way .
    But it is" by practice we are able to discern good from evil" an interesting statement of Paul when you consider that God gave Adam and Eve HIS knowledge of good and evil in the garden of eden. It was their decision to choose what was good in thier own eyes that led to the disaster that followed. Then as now.
    Thus in Christ and by Him our senses are changed to see things as they truly are in GOD's eyes and to act accordingly .
    The temptations of the Lord in the wilderness were all to see things from the world the flesh and the devils eyes and to act accordingly .
    But Jesus full of the Holy Ghost and the Word of God put things in thier right perspective and order and "overcame the wicked one"

    in Christ
  2. #22 KingJ, Jul 23, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2015
    Our love for God is genuine when we hate what is evil and cling to what is good Rom 12:9. We sin but we hate it Rom 7:15.

    What is interesting about 1 Cor 6:9-10 is that if we commit adultery and repent we are not an adulterer. All the 'ers' in that verse imply continuing unrepentant.

    I would say a Christian can't continue in mortal sins. But venial sins we battle with, press on from glory to glory. Paul was not referring to the mortal sin of killing Christians / murder in Rom 7:15.

    It is interesting how he says ''he cannot go on sinning''. Translates as ''we cannot go on without repentance'' as we all sin.
    Big Moose likes this.
  3. Good point. Though the passage doesn't use terms "mortal" or "venial". So what do you mean by "mortal" versus "venial"? If you take it that 1Cor 6:9,10 are examples of "mortal" sins, then they would include greediness and slander. "venial" versus "mortal" tends to be used in Catholic theology, but I haven't heard Catholics admit that being a drunkard is a mortal sin, let alone being greedy or a slanderer. Generally they talk about murder as being a mortal sin as you do above saying "the mortal sin of killing Christians ..."

    In place of terms "mortal" and "venial" I speak of what characterizes a person's lifestyle versus that which occurs but is uncharacteristic of the person's lifestyle.
  4. I see nowhere in scripture that diiferentiates sin. Save in their gravity . But the wages of sin is always death.
    If you have died to sin how then can you live in it asks Paul.
    A man may fall but a righteousman will get up again . nor does a young man sin as little children sin and ye fathers do not sin as young men do sin.
    Our faith is tried like fine gold .That is to say as gold is put in the fire all the impurities come to the surface and is skimmed off.
    and the more the fire the more the impurities rise .
    We are a new creation in Christ "old things have passed away and behold all things have become new"
    The new creation cannot sin.
    ALL temptations are designed to get us walking in the flesh and or in the old man and not walk by faith.
    "If we walk in the Spirit we shall NOT fullfil the lusts of the flesh "
    If we walk in the light as He is in the light then we have fellowship one with the other and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin"
    Even as the natural blood cleanses the natural body from all impurities and disease .So too the blood of Jesus Christ cleanse us from all sin (continually) as we abide in Him and walk in obedience to the law of Christ .

    in Christ
  5. #25 KingJ, Jul 23, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2015
    Greediness and slander if at the max are mortal sins. Every type of sin mentioned has threshholds. Paul's underlying theme is mortal sins in those verses. He is referring to the murderer that can murder without much hesitation. The thief that can steal irrespective of whom he steals from. The adulterer that can cheat without hesitation.

    Just like in Rom 7:15. We arrive at mortal sins from lateral thought. Paul was not referring to the act of murder when he said 'he does what he hates'. That is a fact we can't overlook. That and the fact that certain sins / depths of evil intent have factored into the punishments dealt out in the OT. God does not change.

    I am not Catholic but I do agree with the idea of mortal and venial sins. Mortal sins point to being further lost / sin closer to being full measure / a greater love of evil.

    Look at the build up to 1 Cor 6:9-10

    1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. 7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? 8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    Paul is urging us to judge properly and explaining that our judgment > worlds. So suddenely when Paul says thieves will not be in heaven...we lose all brains and conclude that there is no difference between a kid that steals from the rich just to survive and then one that will not hesitate to steal from anyone, even an elderly widow? When even the world knows better. Paul would be annoyed with us for that type of dicernment right after he told us to discern.

    Paul made certain he said ''adulterer'' and not ''someone who once upon a time cheated''. So we must apply that theme to all the sins he mentioned. They are sold out to that sin. Sold out to unrighteousness. Love the darkness like those mentiond in John 3:19. There is basically no doubt that any of these who die as such will not be in heaven.
    Big Moose likes this.
  6. #26 KingJ, Jul 23, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2015
    What you are saying is that if a person is born with parents who are thieves, God has more mercy for them on that sin? If so, agreed.
  7. While the theory, typical of those of a Free Grace Theology, that "born of God" in 1John 3:9 is not referring to the person but to some entity in them, and this to dispell the idea that 1John 3:9 is referring to a person's behavior, does not stand up under scrutiny.

    For first of all notice that the verse that follows does refer to the person's outward measurable behavior. "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:10

    Further the rhetoric used throughout the New Testament concerning the term "born of God" always refers to the person and not to some entity in the person. For example John says, "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God" 1John 5:1a Is it saying that some entity in the person believes in Jesus, but not necessarily the person themselves. That would seem absurd. And yet these people will claim that "Whoever has been born of God does not sin" is not referring to the person but some entity living in the person and claiming that the entity doesn't sin but the person does.
  8. I don't understand how you come up with that from the statement, "In place of terms "mortal" and "venial" I speak of what characterizes a person's lifestyle versus that which occurs but is uncharacteristic of the person's lifestyle." I mentioned nothing about parents. So it seems what you claim I am saying is not what I actually said, is it?
  9. Earlier in 1 John I believe he clarified this as the foundation.

    chapter 1:
    6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

    Verse 8 uses present tense, 10 uses past tense to distinguish one from the other. We have sinned, and we do have sin. The truth, as it says, is in us if we recognize those facts.
    Amen, He is faithful!
  10. "Free grace theology"? Is this the new kid on the block thats going to blow through the church ?
    It is by grace ye are saved and that by faith and even that is a gift of God .
    If you seek to suggest that the grace of God is not free in that we cannot buy it,that it is unmerited and free in that regard. Then I am not going to wast my time debating such a matter on such a forum.
    But in truth ;it cost God everything to give us something for nothing and in all likelyhood it will cost us everything to keep it.

    For one thing the scriptures say "Christ in you the hope of glory"
    and in another that the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of truth " has come to abide with you forever " "hereby do we kn ow the spirit of error "
    Secondly I am a new creature or creation in Christ Jesus a new man a "partaker of the divine nature "
    That nature will NEVER agree to any sin I might commit and "IF we sin we have an advocate with the father ....."even Jesus Christ .
    I do not dipsute at all that the outward life must manifest the new life that we now confess we have .
    Thy kingdom come my kingdom go. as it were.
    Or as it is written THy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven.
    "As the Lord is in heaven so are we on earth ." Not entirely sure what all that means but its related.
    But what it does mean is that Jesus who became my Saviour needs must also become my KING . Who then must rule in my heart and where my heart was once in darkness "depserately wicked and decietful above all else " If the King now reigns and my eye be single then my heart is full of light and my motives and main spring of my life is of a different order that will progresively manifest itself outwardly as His kingship is more and more manifest in my life .
    Thus theyw ho are joined to the Lord are of one Spirit.
    Where I am and the Lord begins is hard to tell if at all possible.
    Not that I am the Lord nor the Lord me . For even as the burnign bush was not God and God not the burnign bush .Nevertheless what sayeth the scriptures?
    "Because I change not saith the Lord ye are not consumed..." Does he not make his ministers a "flame of fire"?
    is not the soul of a man a "candle of the Lord"?
    Johns whole emphasis is that we DO not sin. Not that we have no sin . "For if any man say he hath no sin the truth is not in him"
    This corrupted body is still subject to the law of sin and death . But I am not subject to my body or should not be . For nwo I live in the Spirit . But if the BODY is dead through sin .If the SAME Spirit that raised up Jesus from the dead DWELL IN you then he shall "quicken " make alive your mortal body by His Spirit.
    It is not the bodt that controls the Spirit but the Spirit that controls the body .
    For the body without the spirit is dead and all who have seen the dead know it so .
    But what says Paul in Ephesians? "That the eyes of your understanding may be opened that ye may SEE AND UNDERSTAND what is the exceedign greatness of His power that is towards us who believe ,in the same mighty power that raised up Jesus Christ from the dead ......"
    is it not written that we are "crucified WITH Christ"?
    "Buried WITH Christ" How is a man buried unless he is dead?
    and are we not also "raised together with Christ"?
    I fear we the church do not really understand how radical this gospel is having reduced it all to simply being BORNagain .
    Still sinning as of old but now somehow we have "an advocate with the father ........." as if nothing has really changed at all. Only now we are or can be forgiven.
    But what of the children of israel? Who for 40 years grieved God and proved Him and kept on sinning? Yet he ahd mercy and forgave . But in the end what profit did it really do them?
    The Bride of Christ will and needs must have a perpetual revival in her heart . Not a super duper crazy smiling clapping stamping hooha . But a holy ghost God sent revival where out of her belly will flow living waters so that thirsty can come and drink and she will have bread to give to the hungry she will open the eyes of the blind ,cloth the naked etc (Isiah 58?)
    and IF we sin THEN we have an advocate with the Father .....
    The emphasis of John is of another order completely . and the life he speaks of also .
    and then it is IF we sin.

    in Christ
  11. Verse 9 is understandable when one understands that we are created as tripartite beings, with a spirit, soul and body. The spirit is what is saved, and it is where Holy Spirit dwells---it has come alive in Christ, and is pure and cannot sin. The spirit communicates with the soul (mind) and the mind receives the truth of the word, and assimilates it, communicating with the body, bringing it under subjection to the word of God.

    So, it doesn't mean that we never sin, but it does mean that our born again spirits cannot sin, as it is the place where God dwells within us. Our minds and bodies are continually subject to renewal, as stated in:

    Romans 12:1-2
    Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
    Big Moose and geralduk say Amen and like this.
  12. I agree with much of what you say. But so that you may be more informed about a popular theology which as been floating around the Christian community for this last century, Free Grace Theology is the sectarian theory that there is not necessarily any correlation between a person's lifestyle and their salvation status. See http://bcbsr.com/topics/freegrace.html for details. One indication that a person holds to Free Grace Theology is how that deal with passages that give a categorical list of people who do not inherit the kingdom of God, such as 1Cor 6:9,10; Eph 5:5,6; Gal 5:19-21

    To allow for their theory of there being those who live a lifestyle of sin among the saved, they will claim that "inherit the kingdom" does not refer to salvation, and fabricate some kind of purgatorial scheme for such people. Another indication being how they interpret 1John, which is all about how to identify children of God and distinguish them from children of the devil. They interpet it simply as referring to a relative degree of fellowship saved Christians have with Christ.
  13. Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
    10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
    11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
    12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
    13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
    14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
  14. Just a note about Adam. he had no sin nature to subdue or overcome.
    If he had not sinned he had not eaten of that fruit he was not given the liberty to eat. He would still be walking this earth today .
    As for the first Adam so too in a figuere the last .
    For if Jesus had not given or laid down his life for sin he would not have died either and would still be walking this earth today .
    A good question then to consider would be why was there a tree of life that they had the liberty to eat of ,when had they not eaten of the other and they would have never died . Yet when they had they were then barred from the tree of life" lest they live forever in thier sin"

    in Christ
  15. Thanks for the info.
    Far better is it then,to learn the truth or come to a knowledge of the truth by the Spirit of truth "that we may know the spirit of error" than to learn all the errors of the devil .

    in Christ
  16. It should be noted that Paul is speaking of christains who are carnally minded.
    BORN again but not renewed in their minds.
    Lot was counted righteous "For his righteous soul was vexed ........."by the iniquities of the city .
    Yet he walked by sight and not by faith .
    For when he was given the choice of which way to go. He chose according to what his eyes told him and his reasoning surmised.
    Abraham on the other hand walked by faith and it did not matter which way he went for God was with him and would prosper him in the way.
    "As in the days of Lot so shall it be in day of the Son of man"
    The last church age has it that "I am rich increased with goods and in need of nothing" The Lords perception and reasoning was "thou art poor and wrteched and in need of eye salve" Blind in other words.
    Yet another body alongside it says "I am poor" Yet the Lord says "ye are rich"

    in Christ
  17. Accord
    According to Peter on the day of Pentecost the prophecy of Joel was "fulfilled in your ears"
    Hebrews 1:1 says "In these last days God has spoken to us by His Son"
    If it was the last days 2000 years ago then those days were "green" you have to conclude then if those days were the last days and were green we are more in the last days then then and now the days are very dry and ready for the fire.

    in Christ
    Abdicate likes this.
  18. Because of the spiritual warfare.
  19. This is the Christian who walks defeated and quickly gives into the pressure of the devil and fails to stand against the wiles of the devil.

    The carnal minded christian operates in the natural man and fails to walk by faith fighting the good fight of faith.
    Cturtle likes this.
  20. 1 Tim. 4;1.........
    "Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,"
    Cturtle likes this.
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