The Best of all possible worlds???

Siloam

Siloam

Supporter
God is Omniscient (has total knowledge of this world and all events throughout all of time down to the smallest subatomic level)
God is Omnipotent (has unbounded ability to make things happen as He deems proper)
He is the first and final source of all authority, so there is no question of that.
These are self-evident as well as confirmed by scripture.

However, consider the world we see all around us is:

On the level of individuals:
There is enmity between neighbors, Back-biting, and selfishness.
Even among brothers in Christ, there is enmity.

On the level of Mankind:
There is war and the striving of each group against all others.
Our institutions are becoming less and less concerned with individuals and how to assuage their needs, and more to increasing the scope and power of the institution, placing their own survival and increase 1st priority.

On the natural level:
There is death and sickness, hunger and misery.
There are Storms, Earthquakes, and various climatic instabilities.

On a spiritual level:
There is the enemy, and all he does. He usurps power over us by manipulating the problems above.

We recognize that these failings and catastrophes and trials and spiritual adversaries are the results of sin, and we all should realize that I am purposely not discussing all the good I see in Gods creation, and His people. There are mitigating attributes at all levels and the final mitigation of Christ's blood whixh enables our entrance into His eternal kingdom.

The Lord could have made creation any way He chose. He created this universe and not some other.

So my question here is:

Is this world we have the best of all possible worlds the Lord could have created?

I am not asking whether _we_ could be better. I am not even asking about the existence of the enemy. These are only of issue here if it sheds light on the greater issue of whether this world is the best that could be from the standpoint of the omniscient and omnipotent creator exercising his full authority in and over creation.

I was going to make this a poll, there is a plausible justification for answering either way. in many ways this is a thought question rather than a question of being correct. This has been discussed among Gods people since the beginning.. What I am interested in is why you view this the way you do.

Why or why not does this world represent the best world possible?

What is your criteria for 'best'.
 
Siloam said:
God is Omniscient (has total knowledge of this world and all events throughout all of time down to the smallest subatomic level)
God is Omnipotent (has unbounded ability to make things happen as He deems proper)
He is the first and final source of all authority, so there is no question of that.
These are self-evident as well as confirmed by scripture.

However, consider the world we see all around us is:

On the level of individuals:
There is enmity between neighbors, Back-biting, and selfishness.
Even among brothers in Christ, there is enmity.

On the level of Mankind:
There is war and the striving of each group against all others.
Our institutions are becoming less and less concerned with individuals and how to assuage their needs, and more to increasing the scope and power of the institution, placing their own survival and increase 1st priority.

On the natural level:
There is death and sickness, hunger and misery.
There are Storms, Earthquakes, and various climatic instabilities.

On a spiritual level:
There is the enemy, and all he does. He usurps power over us by manipulating the problems above.

We recognize that these failings and catastrophes and trials and spiritual adversaries are the results of sin, and we all should realize that I am purposely not discussing all the good I see in Gods creation, and His people. There are mitigating attributes at all levels and the final mitigation of Christ's blood whixh enables our entrance into His eternal kingdom.

The Lord could have made creation any way He chose. He created this universe and not some other.

So my question here is:

Is this world we have the best of all possible worlds the Lord could have created?

I am not asking whether _we_ could be better. I am not even asking about the existence of the enemy. These are only of issue here if it sheds light on the greater issue of whether this world is the best that could be from the standpoint of the omniscient and omnipotent creator exercising his full authority in and over creation.

I was going to make this a poll, there is a plausible justification for answering either way. in many ways this is a thought question rather than a question of being correct. This has been discussed among Gods people since the beginning.. What I am interested in is why you view this the way you do.

Why or why not does this world represent the best world possible?

What is your criteria for 'best'.
Click to expand...

I am not sure how to answer this question or what it exactly means, but if God created this world, and he is all powerful and all knowing, then I accept this for being the best possible world in a physical sense. We have a physical world and a spiritual world. I do believe that the kingdom of god is the greatest world of all and I look forward to one day living there. I also believe we can have heaven on earth.
 
It's hard to know what's the best world for we only have knowledge of this world... however it is the right and best world created just for us.

Even though God is omniscient... He is only in full control in heaven. In the earth He only has dominion over what we involve Him in, and then there are spiritual laws that also apply.
 
There are several ways to approach this:


First off, Can we demand an answer?

This is the way God approached Job's dismay at his own fortunes. Job essentially was saying (and not without some justification in the sight of man) that he was a God-fearing man who tried to live his life as God would have him live, and yet all these calamities happened to him. But, what he was really saying in his heart was that God had wronged him, and God needed to justify allowing Job's misfortunes.
The problem here is that it puts God on trial.

In civil courts, before one can bring a legal suit, the one bringing the suit must show standing to bring the matter before the court. It can't be just that he is upset about something, or even that he has been wronged, but he must show that he was wronged in some manner that civil laws were designed to address.

As in Jobs case with God, we have no standing because God is the first and final authority. He can act in any way he wishes (try the definition of arbitrary). In any other person, that level of arbitrariness would be personal aggrandizement, but God IS the final standard. There is no higher standard by which God may be measured. He is not subject to our views of right and wrong, which too often devolve to that which pleases us either personally or corporately. That is never a good criterion for judging the “best' world.

Whenever the question is “isn't this action of God evil”, even if it is cloaked in asking God what His justification may be, the only answer is that God and His actions are not to be judged by any other being, whether man or spirit.


If one is not really asking why God made things so difficult for us and instead, trying to understand a little more about His universe, there is more that can be realized.

If we wish to determine the best other than what seems good in our own sight, it is important to figure out what we mean by best in this context.
I will put forward an argument put to me a few years ago. I am still pondering and unsure what to make of it. THere is a lot of truth. Does it help understand the universe?

1. The Best of all possible worlds is that which accomplishes God's purpose.

2. Gods purpose in creation is to bring glory to himself.

3. Glory means that not only does Gods creatures know He is Holy, but fully realize what that means.

4. Take any of the issues I started with. If that was not ever in the world, would it bring greater glory to God? My friend said, for instance, that if you were to have a world where sickness was unknown, would you know what wellness is? Would that state bring more glory to God?

You can quibble about how much of bad things there are. Do we really need as much pain to bring glory to God? This is really a watered down version of the make God justify himself that just results in an I AM that I AM (God doesn't answer to you or your judgment).
 
My faith is in Jesus who willingly shed His blood for me and has saved my life here before I even knew Him. If I have the Godhead on my side here and now, what more do I need?
 
Siloam said:
God is Omniscient (has total knowledge of this world and all events throughout all of time down to the smallest subatomic level)
God is Omnipotent (has unbounded ability to make things happen as He deems proper)
He is the first and final source of all authority, so there is no question of that.
These are self-evident as well as confirmed by scripture.

However, consider the world we see all around us is:

On the level of individuals:
There is enmity between neighbors, Back-biting, and selfishness.
Even among brothers in Christ, there is enmity.

On the level of Mankind:
There is war and the striving of each group against all others.
Our institutions are becoming less and less concerned with individuals and how to assuage their needs, and more to increasing the scope and power of the institution, placing their own survival and increase 1st priority.

On the natural level:
There is death and sickness, hunger and misery.
There are Storms, Earthquakes, and various climatic instabilities.

On a spiritual level:
There is the enemy, and all he does. He usurps power over us by manipulating the problems above.

We recognize that these failings and catastrophes and trials and spiritual adversaries are the results of sin, and we all should realize that I am purposely not discussing all the good I see in Gods creation, and His people. There are mitigating attributes at all levels and the final mitigation of Christ's blood whixh enables our entrance into His eternal kingdom.

The Lord could have made creation any way He chose. He created this universe and not some other.

So my question here is:

Is this world we have the best of all possible worlds the Lord could have created?

I am not asking whether _we_ could be better. I am not even asking about the existence of the enemy. These are only of issue here if it sheds light on the greater issue of whether this world is the best that could be from the standpoint of the omniscient and omnipotent creator exercising his full authority in and over creation.

I was going to make this a poll, there is a plausible justification for answering either way. in many ways this is a thought question rather than a question of being correct. This has been discussed among Gods people since the beginning.. What I am interested in is why you view this the way you do.

Why or why not does this world represent the best world possible?

What is your criteria for 'best'.
Click to expand...
This is NOT the world God wanted. But what God decided to do He felt was more important - the gift of free will. Even though we see it as a gamble, He knew perfectly well what was going to happen and yet He allowed it anyhow. Would you want obedient robots programmed to only serve you, or would you rather have something freely choose you? What if you could have a robot spouse? Would you love them even if the love could never be reciprocated? Can the clay ask the potterer "Why?" but we do. It still comes down to trusting His judgements without all the knowledge and understanding.
 
As I think I indicated, I am still considering my friends position.

The danger, from my view, is the choice of bringing glory to God as His purpose, and also the chain of man's reason that follows.

To bring glory to God is certainly one purpose, but there are other possible purposes, which makes the chain of facile arguments less than assured.

But there is some truth in my friend's views. I have found it profitable for meditation even though a final certaintude alludes me.
 
Siloam said:
As I think I indicated, I am still considering my friends position.

The danger, from my view, is the choice of bringing glory to God as His purpose, and also the chain of man's reason that follows.

To bring glory to God is certainly one purpose, but there are other possible purposes, which makes the chain of facile arguments less than assured.

But there is some truth in my friend's views. I have found it profitable for meditation even though a final certaintude alludes me.
Click to expand...
I just finished an intro to philosophy class and the thing I got out of it was that every one of those philosophers had a piece of the truth and they ran with it. They each refuted the other to dismiss "their" claims as unenlightened or flat our wrong. The funny thing was that in reading some 15 philosophers, many of them didn't know but they were quoting some portion of the word of God. In the end, each did what they thought was right in their own eyes, just as the word of God says. We are incapable of understanding God beyond what He chooses to reveal to us. Sometimes, questions are from the devil to lead astray those seeking God and have them turn away from Him using logic without having all the facts. As I see it, there's only one question in our entire life: do I trust God?
 
Abdicate said:
I just finished an intro to philosophy class and the thing I got out of it was that every one of those philosophers had a piece of the truth and they ran with it. They each refuted the other to dismiss "their" claims as unenlightened or flat our wrong. The funny thing was that in reading some 15 philosophers, many of them didn't know but they were quoting some portion of the word of God. In the end, each did what they thought was right in their own eyes, just as the word of God says. We are incapable of understanding God beyond what He chooses to reveal to us. Sometimes, questions are from the devil to lead astray those seeking God and have them turn away from Him using logic without having all the facts. As I see it, there's only one question in our entire life: do I trust God?
Click to expand...

Yes! All other questions are meaningless unless we have comitted to trusting Him!
 
Um.

Tough question to reapond to right off the bat.

But why are you looking at the world for? We are in this world but not of it. The god of this world (satan) did not even create it, he actually perverted Gods perfect creation.


Was just reading 1 corinthians 13 how we rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth.
So stop looking at the world and listing every iniquity known to man and keep your eyes on Jesus. He wants to redeem it thats why we have a Saviour. When I look outside I see a blue sky and birds singing I am not thinking of the latest car crash or how someone argued something yesterday.
 
Siloam said:
God is Omniscient (has total knowledge of this world and all events throughout all of time down to the smallest subatomic level)
God is Omnipotent (has unbounded ability to make things happen as He deems proper)
He is the first and final source of all authority, so there is no question of that.
These are self-evident as well as confirmed by scripture.

However, consider the world we see all around us is:

On the level of individuals:
There is enmity between neighbors, Back-biting, and selfishness.
Even among brothers in Christ, there is enmity.

On the level of Mankind:
There is war and the striving of each group against all others.
Our institutions are becoming less and less concerned with individuals and how to assuage their needs, and more to increasing the scope and power of the institution, placing their own survival and increase 1st priority.

On the natural level:
There is death and sickness, hunger and misery.
There are Storms, Earthquakes, and various climatic instabilities.

On a spiritual level:
There is the enemy, and all he does. He usurps power over us by manipulating the problems above.

We recognize that these failings and catastrophes and trials and spiritual adversaries are the results of sin, and we all should realize that I am purposely not discussing all the good I see in Gods creation, and His people. There are mitigating attributes at all levels and the final mitigation of Christ's blood whixh enables our entrance into His eternal kingdom.

The Lord could have made creation any way He chose. He created this universe and not some other.

So my question here is:

Is this world we have the best of all possible worlds the Lord could have created?

I am not asking whether _we_ could be better. I am not even asking about the existence of the enemy. These are only of issue here if it sheds light on the greater issue of whether this world is the best that could be from the standpoint of the omniscient and omnipotent creator exercising his full authority in and over creation.

I was going to make this a poll, there is a plausible justification for answering either way. in many ways this is a thought question rather than a question of being correct. This has been discussed among Gods people since the beginning.. What I am interested in is why you view this the way you do.

Why or why not does this world represent the best world possible?

What is your criteria for 'best'.
Click to expand...

Does this world represent the best world possible?

No.

Why?

It was made "very good", and I believe "perfect" trumps "very good".

(Pretty confidant "perfect" is on the agenda, when it's all done.)

God Bless,
IJN
 
The world WAS perfect in the beginning until the apple was eaten. The world now is in turmoil from that. Jesus will make it perfect again as soon as HE returns, for a thousand years. Then after that... onward to Heaven. Talking about that gives me God Bumps.....not goose bumps :LOL:
 
chili said:
The world WAS perfect in the beginning until the apple was eaten. The world now is in turmoil from that. Jesus will make it perfect again as soon as HE returns, for a thousand years. Then after that... onward to Heaven. Talking about that gives me God Bumps.....not goose bumps :LOL:
Click to expand...

Chili... I am ready, too... Cannot wait.
But I know we can live in the Kingdom of God now on this earth while we are waiting. I am working on this with the HS..... I want the Kingdom now and I dont want to wait.......... so exciting.....
 
I thank all who have responded.

If this is not the best of all possible worlds, what is your criteria for designating what is best?

Or, to approach it from another direction, what would be a better world?

If, as is our first thought, the world would be much better if man had never fallen, then I would then respond that of course, we would be better, but would creation be better from God's perspective?

What about the enemy? Satan revolted and fell well before man (he was already the enemy of God when man was still in the garden).

By the way, there are believers who would modify my first premise. John Polkinghorne (scientist & Anglican priest) once stated that the God is experiencing time just as we are (he may look forward, but actions of morally responsible beings such as the devil and us may change things outside of God's plan. The fall of Satan and the fall of Man are both instances where this happened. This is not my take. It violates several things I 'know' from both scripture and the sciences, but it is part of the discussion among believers.
 
Siloam said:
I thank all who have responded.

If this is not the best of all possible worlds, what is your criteria for designating what is best?
Click to expand...

Perfection. A world without evil, deception, grief, sadness, diseases, confusion, ie. A world as is promised by the Faithful Word of the Lord.

Or, to approach it from another direction, what would be a better world?
Click to expand...

Perfect peace and harmony, "With" our Perfect God.

If, as is our first thought, the world would be much better if man had never fallen, then I would then respond that of course, we would be better, but would creation be better from God's perspective?
Click to expand...

This world was made Very Good, "but" Natural.
Nothing of this World can become "Spiritual", until the "Natural" first die.
1 Cor 15:36

What about the enemy? Satan revolted and fell well before man (he was already the enemy of God when man was still in the garden).
Click to expand...

Scripture teaches a 6 day creation of mankinds estate (world) and things on mankinds estate (plants, water, seeds, animals) and mankind created out of his own estate (dry land, ie earth).

Also, God had a place on this earth, called the Garden of Eden, that God planted, and where God put the man, and where man could hear the Voice of God.
Gen 2:8

Satan, was cast from heaven During the creation of the Earth. As it was First being formed, Satan was a morning star, singing with the bright morning star, (ie the Word of God), as the foundation of the earth was being laid. Before the World was finished, Satan was cast to earth, for his own thoughts in his own heart, that he could rise above God.

Was Satan cast to God's Planted Garden? Scripture does not say. What it does say, is Satan was present in the Garden, and tempted the first of mankind, and that the first of mankind fell for Satan's temptation. And thereafter, the man was expelled from the Garden of Eden and it became a closed door for "Natural" mankind to thereafter enter.


By the way, there are believers who would modify my first premise. John Polkinghorne (scientist & Anglican priest) once stated that the God is experiencing time just as we are (he may look forward, but actions of morally responsible beings such as the devil and us may change things outside of God's plan. The fall of Satan and the fall of Man are both instances where this happened. This is not my take. It violates several things I 'know' from both scripture and the sciences, but it is part of the discussion among believers.
Click to expand...

I do not believe God "experiences" Time, the same as mankind. God Is infinite. Nothing is new to Him.
Ecc 1:9

Scripture teaches what God created For mankind, Is all for the benefit Of (Natural) mankind, to exist Naturally temporarily and exist Spiritually forever.

Time was one of those things, given to mankind;
Hours, Days, Weeks, Years, Seasons; which all lead to an Appointment with God.

God Bless,
IJN
 
Is your friend a christian believer, do they know Jesus and have his revelation about heaven?
We have hope in the unseen, but it has been revealed to us in Christ. Revelation tells us what this perfect world/kingdom will be like, no crying, no sickness etc. All of us must die to the natural before we experience the spiritual. The natural is temporary, and will corrupt, the spiritual is eternal and incorruptible.

God is holy, holy, holy. There is no shadow in his turning...does your friend understand this?
 
Lanolin said:
Is your friend a christian believer, do they know Jesus and have his revelation about heaven?
We have hope in the unseen, but it has been revealed to us in Christ. Revelation tells us what this perfect world/kingdom will be like, no crying, no sickness etc. All of us must die to the natural before we experience the spiritual. The natural is temporary, and will corrupt, the spiritual is eternal and incorruptible.

God is holy, holy, holy. There is no shadow in his turning...does your friend understand this?
Click to expand...

Well, he was the Pastor of the most fundamental church I ever attended (and principal of its school). He felt that everything that has happened is part of God's plan. When asked about Satan and man, he replies that it would not bring more glory to God if Satan (and man) had never revolted. In fact, that was his stock answer to any question regarding ills of the world.
 
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