What is the "Mystery"?

Complete said:
Hello again, @Big Moose,

This is a precious subject with may facets, and one which I am a little fearful of entering upon in a forum situation, for it is a subject to be pondered, and treated with great care.

* As we know, there is more than one 'mystery' referred to in Scripture, you yourself having quoted three:-

'The Mystery of Christ': (Eph. 3:4) was made known in other generations, and was not made known exclusively to Paul, but was made known to the apostles and prophets, including Paul.
'The Mystery': (Eph.3:3,9) which was 'hid in God', therefore not the subject of Old Testament prophecy, the gospel records or the epistles written prior to it's revelation to Paul while in prison at Rome; and revealed subsequently by him, in the epistles to Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus, (Philemon being of a more personal nature).

Romans 16:25, 26, as part of the doxology relating to the central portion of Romans (5:12-8:39): refers to the mystery revealed within that portion: which had been 'kept secret' since the world began; and not before the world began (Titus 1:2; 2 Tim. 1:9). It is the purpose of the central section of Romans to reveal the relationship of man, as such (ie., as neither Jew nor Gentile), to Adam and to Christ, irrespective both of promises made to the fathers, or to the failure or success of the chosen nation.

(Gr. musterion G3466):-
- In the gospels: Matt. 13:11, Mark 4:11, Luke 8:10.
- In the pre-prison epistles of Paul: Rom. 11:25; 16:25; 1 Cor. 2:7; 4:1; 13:2; 14:2; 15:51; 2 Thess. 2:7.
- Prison epistles: Eph. 1:9; 3:3,4; 5:32; 6:19; Col. 1:26,27; 2:2; 4:3.
- Interim epistles: 1 Tim. 3:9,16.
- Revelation: 1:20; 10:7; 17:5,7.
- Old Testament (secret/s) Dan. 2:18, 19, 27, 29, 30, 47 (2), 4:6.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
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And also the CHURCH was a mystery.
 
Penion said:
Hi Major!

If the Church WAS a mystery, when did it no longer be a mystery?

(Thank you for being a dedicated Bible student--I always learn something new from you.)
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Thanks for the flowers brother.

Eph 3:3-5.......
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote before in few words, whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit."

The real MYSTERY was that the Gentiles and Israel were placed on the same basis my brother. By faith in Christ they were both brought into a new body which is what we now know as the "Church". Christ is head of that new body.

That now makes the human race a three fold division...........

ALL people were Gentiles from Adam to Abraham, some 2000 years.
ALL people were either Jew or Gentile from Abraham to Christ, again, another 2000 years.
The 3 fold division is Jews or Gentiles and the church from the Day of Pentecost to the Rapture, another 2000 years.

Paul spoke to that in 1 Cor. when he stated.........
"Give none offence, neither to the JEWS, nor to the GENTILES nor to the CHURCH of God".

It was no longer a mystery after Paul explained what it was. We live today in the Church age which is the day of grace which from the ages past has been hid in God who created all things.
 
Major said:
ALL people were Gentiles from Adam to Abraham, some 2000 years.
ALL people were either Jew or Gentile from Abraham to Christ, again, another 2000 years.
The 3 fold division is Jews or Gentiles and the church from the Day of Pentecost to the Rapture, another 2000 years.
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Hello Major,

I would love to tick the 'Amen' button, for I agree with most of what you have said, but the words above prevent me doing so. For the Church which is the Body of Christ of Ephesians and the prison epistles, did not begin at Pentecost. It began after Israel was laid aside in unbelief (temporarily) at the end of the Acts period, for it was then, while in prison at Rome that Paul made known the fellowship of the Mystery, which had been hid in God (Eph. 3:9).

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
Complete said:
Hello Major,

I would love to tick the 'Amen' button, for I agree with most of what you have said, but the words above prevent me doing so. For the Church which is the Body of Christ of Ephesians and the prison epistles, did not begin at Pentecost. It began after Israel was laid aside in unbelief (temporarily) at the end of the Acts period, for it was then, while in prison at Rome that Paul made known the fellowship of the Mystery, which had been hid in God (Eph. 3:9).

In Christ Jesus
Chris
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LOL!!!:ROFLMAO:

You are the 1st person to say that you could not agree with me!!!:cry:

You are most welcome to what you think as that is the reason we all keep on working and digging isn't it.

Anyway, in defence of my comments may I call your attention to Matt.16:18...........
“I will build My church”.

He did not say that He would continue to add to something already in existence, but that He would do something not yet begun.

Now in Eph. 1:20-23 we see................
Ephesians 1:20-23New King James Version (NKJV)
" which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come. And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all."

That means the church could have no functioning Head until after the resurrection of Christ; therefore, it could not exist until some time after He rose from the dead. Please note how these verses connect His resurrection, ascension, and session to His headship over the church.

Notice Acts 2:47 where it says......
"And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved."
It is in the second chapter of Acts that we find the establishment of Christ's Church.

The church could not have been an operating entity with functioning spiritual gifts until after Christ’s ascension.

When I consider the number of passages available, it seems clear to me that Pentecost marked the beginning of the church as a functioning body (the body of Christ) by the outpouring of the Spirit on that day.

Bless you sister!!!
 
Major said:
Thanks for the flowers brother.

Eph 3:3-5.......
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote before in few words, whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit."

The real MYSTERY was that the Gentiles and Israel were placed on the same basis my brother. By faith in Christ they were both brought into a new body which is what we now know as the "Church". Christ is head of that new body.

That now makes the human race a three fold division...........

ALL people were Gentiles from Adam to Abraham, some 2000 years.
ALL people were either Jew or Gentile from Abraham to Christ, again, another 2000 years.
The 3 fold division is Jews or Gentiles and the church from the Day of Pentecost to the Rapture, another 2000 years.

Paul spoke to that in 1 Cor. when he stated.........
"Give none offence, neither to the JEWS, nor to the GENTILES nor to the CHURCH of God".

It was no longer a mystery after Paul explained what it was. We live today in the Church age which is the day of grace which from the ages past has been hid in God who created all things.
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I don't know if I would call those before Abraham Gentiles. There were no Jews then, so the idea of a Gentile would not either. Also, was Abraham a Jew? I thought Jacob was the first Jew since he was Israel. :D
 
Big Moose said:
I don't know if I would call those before Abraham Gentiles. There were no Jews then, so the idea of a Gentile would not either. Also, was Abraham a Jew? I thought Jacob was the first Jew since he was Israel. :D
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I believe that Shem was the first Jew. "Anti-Shemitic". Through Eber, the line continues to Abraham, Issac and Jacob. I am no expert, so anyone please comment!
 
Major:
Anyway, in defence of my comments may I call your attention to Matt.16:18...........
“I will build My church”.
He did not say that He would continue to add to something already in existence, but that He would do something not yet begun.
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' ... upon this rock I will build My Church ... '

Hello @Major,

Thank you for acknowledging my response. :)

This wonderful verse you quote (above), refers to that immovable rock: the Divinely given Truth concerning our Lord Jesus Christ, as the Messiah, 'the Son of the living God', Who is the 'foundation stone ' of Isaiah 28:16, and the rejected stone of Psalm 118:22. On this 'Rock' our Lord says His Church will be built, using the words, 'I will', therefore then future, as in Hos. 1:10; and 2:23. The word, 'church', meaning 'assembly', which is defined as 'Israel', and the 'Remnant' (Rom. 9:25-27). Not the' ecclesia' of the mystery (or secret) revealed in Ephesians; but that referred to in (Psa. 22:22,25) . (ref: 'The Companion Bible' marginal notes) - There is more than one company referred to communally as a 'church', isn't there Major? (eg., Acts 7:38)

At the Feast of Pentecost, a feast of the Jews, there were no Gentiles, but Jews from among the nations who had come to celebrate it at Jerusalem: and it was to, '... men of Judea, and all who dwell at Jerusalem ...,' and, '... Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel. ... ', that Peter, by God's instrumentality, spoke in Acts 2. The door of repentance was being opened wide for Israel, as a nation to enter, at that time: and for the forty years following; and it was the restoration of the nation which was sought still, and the restitution of all things, promised of old. Those who responded became the, 'remnant', of Israel, part of the Olive tree of Israel, into which Gentiles of that period were brought, and through whom they were, 'blessed'. Not so the 'called-out' company of the Ephesian, Colossian, and Philippian epistles, who were being called-out from among nations, independent of Israel as a means of blessing, the Olive tree having been cut down, and the covenant relation, and it's blessings in abeyance, until a yet future day.

So, no the Church of the mystery, and it's truth, which had been, 'hid in God' (Eph. 3:9), was not established until the end of the period covered by the record of the Acts of the Apostles, and the epistles written during that period.

Thank you, Major,
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Big Moose said:
I don't know if I would call those before Abraham Gentiles. There were no Jews then, so the idea of a Gentile would not either. Also, was Abraham a Jew? I thought Jacob was the first Jew since he was Israel. :D
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Good point! So, the question then would be who was the first Jew? If by “Jew” we mean “Hebrew,” Abraham was the first Jew. If by “Jew” we mean “of the tribe of Judah,” Judah was the first Jew. If by “Jew” we mean “the first person in the Bible to be referred to as a Jew,” the nameless Jews in 2 Kings chapters 16—25 were the first Jews. Generally speaking, people today use the term Jew to refer to “a person who is of the chosen people of Israel.” With that in mind, IMO, Abraham should be considered the first Jew.
 
Complete said:
' ... upon this rock I will build My Church ... '

Hello @Major,

Thank you for acknowledging my response. :)

This wonderful verse you quote (above), refers to that immovable rock: the Divinely given Truth concerning our Lord Jesus Christ, as the Messiah, 'the Son of the living God', Who is the 'foundation stone ' of Isaiah 28:16, and the rejected stone of Psalm 118:22. On this 'Rock' our Lord says His Church will be built, using the words, 'I will', therefore then future, as in Hos. 1:10; and 2:23. The word, 'church', meaning 'assembly', which is defined as 'Israel', and the 'Remnant' (Rom. 9:25-27). Not the' ecclesia' of the mystery (or secret) revealed in Ephesians; but that referred to in (Psa. 22:22,25) . (ref: 'The Companion Bible' marginal notes) - There is more than one company referred to communally as a 'church', isn't there Major? (eg., Acts 7:38)

At the Feast of Pentecost, a feast of the Jews, there were no Gentiles, but Jews from among the nations who had come to celebrate it at Jerusalem: and it was to, '... men of Judea, and all who dwell at Jerusalem ...,' and, '... Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel. ... ', that Peter, by God's instrumentality, spoke in Acts 2. The door of repentance was being opened wide for Israel, as a nation to enter, at that time: and for the forty years following; and it was the restoration of the nation which was sought still, and the restitution of all things, promised of old. Those who responded became the, 'remnant', of Israel, part of the Olive tree of Israel, into which Gentiles of that period were brought, and through whom they were, 'blessed'. Not so the 'called-out' company of the Ephesian, Colossian, and Philippian epistles, who were being called-out from among nations, independent of Israel as a means of blessing, the Olive tree having been cut down, and the covenant relation, and it's blessings in abeyance, until a yet future day.

So, no the Church of the mystery, and it's truth, which had been, 'hid in God' (Eph. 3:9), was not established until the end of the period covered by the record of the Acts of the Apostles, and the epistles written during that period.

Thank you, Major,
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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It is always an honor to speak with those who have the love of the Lord in their hearts.

I would call to your your attentoJesus Christ because He is the firstfruits according to 1 Cor. 15:23..........
"Christ the firstfruits, afterward they that are Christ's at His coming".

Since the Passover has been fulfilled in the death of Christ and the Feast of Firstfruites has been fulfilled in the resurrection of Christ, it then seems to me that the Feast of Pentacost represents something which is IMO the fulfillment of something. That fulfillment is the birth of the Church, the day the church came into existence.

It took the coming of the Holy Spirit in the very special ministry of calling out a people of this world to form the body of believers who in fact is the body of Christ. One minute before the Spirit came on the day of Pentecost there was no church. ONE minute after He came there was a church.

1 Cor. 12:13............
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free and have been all made to drink into one Spirit".
 
Major said:
Good point! So, the question then would be who was the first Jew? If by “Jew” we mean “Hebrew,” Abraham was the first Jew. If by “Jew” we mean “of the tribe of Judah,” Judah was the first Jew. If by “Jew” we mean “the first person in the Bible to be referred to as a Jew,” the nameless Jews in 2 Kings chapters 16—25 were the first Jews. Generally speaking, people today use the term Jew to refer to “a person who is of the chosen people of Israel.” With that in mind, IMO, Abraham should be considered the first Jew.
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If Abraham is a Jew then also Ishmael? I think Jews refer to those of Israel. Jacob was renamed Israel by God, so I would think either Jacob or his first son would be the first Jew. All the tribes of Israel are Jews, so those are Jacob's kids. If Ishmael is a Jew, then there are a lot of Arabs who don't know that they are really Jews!!! You know they are descendants of Abraham also.
If you are saying by circumcision covenant one becomes a Jew, then Ishmael must be also.
 
I believe that Abraham is the first of the Jewish nation, the starting point. Ishmael doesn't figure in because he was not the son of promise, but Isaac was the promised offspring to begin the ancestry and legacy of Israel.
 
Complete said:
So, no the Church of the mystery, and it's truth, which had been, 'hid in God' (Eph 3:9), was not established until the end of the period covered by the record of the Acts of the Apostles, and the epistles written during that period.
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Chris, many Bible scholars mark the beginning of the Church at Pentecost, "not the end of the period" covered by Acts. Your posts are so long I can't wade through all of them. Please reiterate your position on Pentecost.
 
Big Moose said:
If Abraham is a Jew then also Ishmael? I think Jews refer to those of Israel. Jacob was renamed Israel by God, so I would think either Jacob or his first son would be the first Jew. All the tribes of Israel are Jews, so those are Jacob's kids. If Ishmael is a Jew, then there are a lot of Arabs who don't know that they are really Jews!!! You know they are descendants of Abraham also.
If you are saying by circumcision covenant one becomes a Jew, then Ishmael must be also.
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Technically, IMO Abraham was a Gentile, but he is the father of Judaism, so he was Jewish, if not a "Jew" [from Judah].
Ishmael and Hagar left and did not follow the ways of Abraham. They went their own way, so they were not Jewish.

And yes, they are descendants but not only just that they are also half brothers having the same father but different mothers..
 
Penion said:
Chris, many Bible scholars mark the beginning of the Church at Pentecost, "not the end of the period" covered by Acts. Your posts are so long I can't wade through all of them. Please reiterate your position on Pentecost.
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Hello Penion,

With respect, my posts are not long, the last one was just two paragraphs in length. :)

Let us allow the Holy Spirit to give His own explanation of Pentecost:-
- Acts 2:16 ( see Joel 2:28-32, especially Joel 2:25, and the reference to 'restoration'): in refering to Joel, the Holy Spirit, through Peter, links what happened at Penticost with the day of the Lord (Acts 2:20)
- Pentecost is one of the feasts of Israel, found in Leviticus 23, they portray the phases of God's purpose of the ages which deal with Israel and the earthly kingdom.
- In Acts 5:31, Peter states that Christ had been exalted in order to give repentance to Israel.

The Church which is Christ's Body, Eph.1:22,23, of which Christ is the Head: was the subject of a secret that was 'hid in God' until 40 years later; after Israel was finally, though temporarily, laid aside in unbelief. So it cannot have had it's beginning at Pentecost.

The believing assembly which had it's beginnings at Pentecost, were those, of Israel, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah. They all anticipated His imminent return, and the restoration of Israel.

Hope this helps, Penion.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
Penion said:
I believe that Shem was the first Jew. "Anti-Shemitic". Through Eber, the line continues to Abraham, Issac and Jacob. I am no expert, so anyone please comment!
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The first Semite? There were many Semitic people (Eblaites, Ugarits, and more) that were not "Jewish". The term "Jewish" which first appears in Ezra/Nehemiah was a anme picked up in reference to the people of the Southern Kingdom (the Kingdom of Judah) during the Babylonian captivity. Before then I suppose one could call the Judahites "Jews" but it was not done by any of the other 11 tribes of the children of Israel nor by themselves as far as I can see...

Therefore it is a misnomer to even call Abraham the first "Jew" as he is called the first "Hebrew" but that is not the same nor does it mean the same thing.

In His love

Paul
 
Brother Paul said:
I just love the whole application refers not to something we must ponder or solve, but something there though mysterious that we can enter into...
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2 Corinthians 5:
4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Brother Paul, your post struck a chord with me. I instantly was taken back to remember when I first turned my life to Christ. The whole not knowing what I was really getting into thing. The 'what was coming next'. It was so mysterious and in many ways yet is.
Open your eyes so you may see, open your ears so you may hear, yet we walk by faith, not by sight. So mysterious that those atheists who can only understand by their limited thinking, cannot even begin to conceive the mystery of faith.

That could be the one word explanation for the mystery. FAITH

Well done Brother Paul. May your tree continue to be fruity. (I'm pretty sure that was supposed to be a compliment.):D
 
Brother Paul said:
The first Semite? There were many Semitic people (Eblaites, Ugarits, and more) that were not "Jewish". The term "Jewish" which first appears in Ezra/Nehemiah was a anme picked up in reference to the people of the Southern Kingdom (the Kingdom of Judah) during the Babylonian captivity. Before then I suppose one could call the Judahites "Jews" but it was not done by any of the other 11 tribes of the children of Israel nor by themselves as far as I can see...

Therefore it is a misnomer to even call Abraham the first "Jew" as he is called the first "Hebrew" but that is not the same nor does it mean the same thing.
In His love
Paul
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Paul, we need not discuss Shem right now. But Eber was the first Jew (or Hebrew) by pronouncing his name, E-
brew. I got this (I think) from a Bible handbook. If you disagree, please provide some scripture or Bible commentary to refute this. You have given much above; can you crystallize it further?

God Bless you,
Penion
 
What matters in the purpose of God is, ' ... in Isaac shall thy seed be called'

'... Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham,
are they all children: but,
In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is,
They which are the children of the flesh,
these are not the children of God:
but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. ... '
(Rom 9:7,8)

:)
 
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