Yes, that is true, especially concerning women in the Body of Christ being marginalized errantly.
An honest question to cessationists
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Yes, that is true, especially concerning women in the Body of Christ being marginalized errantly.
My dear sister in Christ. We can go back and forth for a long time with the comments of Yes he did and no he didn't.
If you choose to believe what he said does not apply today then wonderful! I am not inclined to go on and on and back and forth on this subject.
I have read the words many times that Paul wrote as have you. We evidently understand them differently and no one is going to change anyone's mind on this.
So then, I have nothing else to add to this subject as there is nothing more I know to say on it. It is what is and it is for the individual to accept or reject as he is so led by the Holy Spirit of God.
As always it is a great blessing to speak with you and I hope the best for you.
Personally I do not know anything about that as I have never seen it happen.
In the church I attend know the music director is a woman. The educational director is a woman. Of the 12 Bible study teachers, 8 are women. One of the ladies is asked frequently to fill in for the pastor when he is away or sick. One of the ladies teaches a Tuesday morning Bible class for the elderly.
I am not being difficult, I just have not seen what you are describing.
The beliefs you have about women are not congruent with all of scripture, as women have been used of God as leaders and preachers and prophets and teachers. One needs to become aware of these anointed women and come to grips with the fact that Paul does not proscribe the use of women in the Body of Christ in any way. In fact, he encourages women in the use of their gifts everywhere.
Many women in both the Old and New Testaments functioned in leadership roles, and the list includes Deborah, Huldah and Miriam in the Old Testament. The New Testament reveals Mary Magdalene, Junia, Phoebe, Priscilla and the women of Philippi who labored with Paul in the gospel (Philippians. 4:3). It is believed by many that Priscilla was actually the one with the leadership gift because Paul mentions her first, although it was customary to mention the husband, and in this case, Aquila, first (Romans 16:3-5).
In the bible, those women who filled leadership roles should be regarded as fulfilling God's chosen pattern, approved by Him as the norm and not as exceptions.
It is overwhelmingly clear that women throughout all scripture have functioned in leadership roles, including as apostles in the New Covenant. As the Lord established the Church as the model, any church that limits or forbids those who can serve as leaders according to their gifting because of their gender cannot call itself a New Testament church, having stepped aside from the New Testament norm. Some will argue, "What about Paul’s call for female silence and submission in 1 Timothy 2:11-12 and 1 Corinthians 14:34-35?”
Firstly, these passages should never be used as the canonical authority concerning women in the local church. The several passages that show women functioning in leadership should be given equal status with these two passages. Secondly, it is obvious in these two passages that Paul is addressing local, cultural situations that existed in Corinth and Ephesus. It is on the same level as his admonishing believers to greet one another with a holy kiss, or for women to wear a head covering when praying and prophesying. He never meant for these sayings to be considered guidelines for establishing a church order and excluding women from leadership roles in the church.
May God bless you today, Major.
1Ti 2:11.. Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.
I am married and my wife is submissive to me because I am the head of my family, just as God commanded. I know lots of Godly women, but they not submissive to me as I am not their husband. If they are married they are to be submissive to their own husbands, and not to any other man. No women is to be submissive to any man except their own husband.
1Ti 2:12.. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
The word "women" here is referring to a "wife" not women in general.!!!
1Ti 2:13.. For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
1Ti 2:14.. and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
1Ti 2:15.. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.
Now we can see what the Apostle Paul is talking about as he is referring to a husband wife situation, not about women being subjected to any man, only to her husband.
I am married and my wife is submissive to me because I am the head of my family, just as God commanded. I know lots of Godly women, but they not submissive to me as I am not their husband. If they are married they are to be submissive to their own husbands, and not to any other man. No women is to be submissive to any man except their own husband.
1Ti 2:12.. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
The word "women" here is referring to a "wife" not women in general.!!!
1Ti 2:13.. For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
1Ti 2:14.. and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
1Ti 2:15.. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.
Now we can see what the Apostle Paul is talking about as he is referring to a husband wife situation, not about women being subjected to any man, only to her husband.
You are welcome to believe as you wish but IMO that is not what Paul was teaching. IF you think so then that is fine with me.
Wasn't Eve as a woman the wife of Adam? I still do not understand your thinking on this woman/wife thing.
Do you not think that some of the women in the church at Corinth were wives. Aren't women the ones who become wives?
And you are correct about 1 Tim. 2:14. The woman who was the wife of Adam was the one deceived and tricked by Satan which indicates a fundamental tendancy which shows the woman should not be the leader in the home or the church.
DO NOT YELL at me!!! That is exactly what the Bible teaches my brethren!!
Many wonderful Christian women are the spiritual leaders of the home, whether it is because they are single, or whether they are merely spiritually single. God is there for that family through her sanctification.
1 Corinthians 7:14
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.
1 Corinthians 7:14
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.
Blasphemy! LOL![emoji14]All men say they are the head, but every married man knows his wife runs the house.
Man is only over his wife, not other women, and that is ONLY in a marriage, not in Christ. In Christ there is no male or female, so in the Church man has no authority over a women. Christ is the head of woman, just as Christ is head over the man!!
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Brother, saying something is a "no brainer" is the truth. It is not being mean!
It is with the "heart" man believeth unto righteousness, not the brain! If we use our "brain" to try and discover spiritual truth we will always get it wrong.
Rom 10:10.. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
My apologies that I took it in the wrong way then. It is just that it seemed that way because that is the way most people use those words, so I naturally thought that way.
Thats not true Abdicate......She gives me permission a few days a month to run the house. I run the vacume and and dust cloth and the mop and bucket and so forth....All men say they are the head, but every married man knows his wife runs the house.
I know you are being funny, but, I think you are right. My wife pretty much runs the home, and I am just the overseer that watches over it all as a watchmen.All men say they are the head, but every married man knows his wife runs the house.
My wife for sure knows how to "consider the field, and than buy it" . Shopping and spending money is her specialty!! $$$
Pro 31:15 She rises while it is yet night and provides food for her household and portions for her maidens.
Pro 31:16 She considers a field and buys it; with the fruit of her hands she plants a vineyard.
Now that just is not the case my brother. I am struggling to understand why you are insisting such a thing when the Scriptures teach us just the opposite. I know that is what you WANT them to say as it supports your thinking but it just is not so.
I am aware of your thinking that the Scriptures are only referring to husbands and wives, not men and women in general. Please consider that the Greek words for “woman” and “man” in 1 Timothy 2 could refer to husbands and wives; however, the basic meaning of the words is broader than that.
Further, the same Greek words are used in verses 8–10. Are only husbands to lift up holy hands in prayer without anger and disputing (verse 8)? Are only wives to dress modestly, have good deeds, and worship God (verses 9–10)? Of course not. Verses 8–10 clearly refer to all men and women, not just husbands and wives. There is nothing in the context that would indicate a narrowing to husbands and wives in verses 11–14.
1 Tim. 2:12......
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet."
1 Corinthians 14:34–35..........
"The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. "
Neither verse mentions WIVES but clearly say WOMEN.
You can not take one scripture and make a doctrine out of it....
1Ti 2:12.. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
1Ti 2:13.. For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
1Ti 2:14.. and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
1Ti 2:15.. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.
Adam as the head of his family was responsible for Eve's actions. Man is ONLY over his wife in marriage, but not in the Church!!!
1Co 11:3.. But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.(KJV)
Is every man the head of every women? Absolutely not!!!!
1Co 11:3.. But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. (ESV)
The "husband" is the only place the man is over his wife!!
Eph 5:21.. submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.
Eph 5:22.. Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
Eph 5:23.. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.
Eph 5:24.. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.
The Greek word used for "man" and for "husband"
in the New Testament is the same word, "aner". The Greek
of the New Testament had no separate word for "husband."
It had no word for "wife." The Greek
word for "woman," gyne, has been translated both as
"woman" and as "wife."
It must be determined by the setting which of
these should be given to the words in the
English passage. You must tell from the context whether it's talking about women in general, or strictly
about wives. Sometimes Paul is talking about women in
general — but at other times he's strictly talking about
wives. And such passages should be interpreted as relating
to the role of a wife.
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I am sorry brother but I can not agree with your opinion. To me when Paul wrote the word "WOMAN" he actually meant "WOMAN".
Women do become WIVES after marriage but Paul did not specify WIVES in the verses I posted. He said WOMEN.
Genesis 3:16.......
"To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”
In I Corinthians 14:34-35, Paul gives no qualifiers. He just says "let the women keep silent in the assemblies".
YOU are having to change the words and their meaning to be what you want them to be my brother. Allow me to share a Biblical teaching with you my brother.
YOU have made it clear that you understand that Paul was speaking only of married women and not single ones hence the difference between WOMAN and WIVES. YOU have stated that the man is only in authority over his own WIFE and not other WOMEN. YOU have pointed out that the Greek uses the same word to mean "woman" or "wife," and actually that is correct. Even today a man today might refer to his "wife" as his "woman." In some cases, then, the Greek word gune means "wife" while in other cases it means "women in general." So then the question is which is Paul’s intent here?
The position that gune here only means "wife" would make Paul teach that single women may speak in the assembly but married women cannot? Now does that make any sense at all???? NO it does not!
Some have even said that a married woman may address the assembly if her husband is absent but not if he is present. In this view, then, a single woman may speak to the assembly and a married woman may also speak if her husband, to whom she is subject, leaves. Do you really think that is this what Paul meant? While there would be no basis for Paul to make such a distinction, there is evidence on which to find the answer if you choose to accept it.
We have an indication from scripture as to whether Paul means "wife" or "woman" in this passage. Only three chapters earlier, in I Corinthians 11, Paul also discusses appropriate behavior for women. There he says women are to be subject to men as their "head" even as Christ submits to his "head," God. Does he mean to say here that only wives are subject to their husbands or that women in general in have different roles than men in general?
Fortunately, in this passage Paul describes the "women" to which he refers in ways that make it clear whether he uses gune to mean "women in general" or "wives" only. In verse 8, Paul says the women of whom he is speaking were "of man." But wives are not "of" their husbands. The first woman, however, was "of" the first man. Thus, women in general are "of man" but "wives" are not of "husbands." In verse twelve, likewise, Paul says that "man is also by the woman." We cannot say that husbands are "by" their "wives," but it is accurate to say that men in general come "by" women in general since all men are born of woman.
IMO then, there is no doubt, then, that Paul here uses the terms "man" and "woman" in their general sense and does not mean "husband" and "wife." If this is true of his use of these terms in chapter 11 when speaking of male-female issues, he certainly would not use them differently in chapter 14 without so advising the reader.
This use also fits well in I Corinthians 14:35, which could then be translated "let them ask their own men." Even unmarried women have men of their acquaintance, friends, elders, evangelists, of whom they may ask questions in private.
Those told not to speak in the assemblies, then, are women in general--the common use of the term gune, and not some limited group of women such as only women speaking with a spiritual gift or only wives.
All men say they are the head, but every married man knows his wife runs the house.
I pretty much agree with you brother. May I add to your comment that my wife expects me to be the head of the family.
We have for 47 years talked and discussed every single thing we have done or wanted to do. However, in every single case her expectation as a Christian wife was that I as her husband would be the one to make the final decision based on her imput and our respect for each others opinions.
Now you are mixing two different things here.
"To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”
Why would you suppose man would rule over the women? "....for your husband, and he shall rule over you.” Not men or man but Husband rules over his "wife"!!!!
Do not take 1 Cor 14:35 out of context with the next verse!!!
1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
No sir I am not.
My use of Gen. 3:16 was to show that Eve tried to take the leadership role and made a decision to disobey God without consulting her husband. She allowed herself to be deceived and made a colossal blunder, so God required that she would always be subject to her husband (Gen. 3:16). Her punishment reminds her that she left her role of subjection. Man was punished just as severely, but in a different way.
I am responding correctly to your comments which was that there is a difference between WIVES and WOMEN in your opinion and men only have authority over their WIVES within the church. That is your claim.
I disagree with that and have given you the Scriptures and the actual Greek wording as to why that is not the case. IT is your choice to believe or reject.
Nothing I have stated is out of context. It seems to me that YOU are having trouble accepting it but it is none the less right out of the Bible my brother but it is not what you have been taught. If you disagree with me, no problem for me because I still love you and we will be in disagreement.
Those told not to speak in the assemblies, then, are women in general--the common use of the term gune, and not some limited group of women such as only women speaking with a spiritual gift or only wives.