Predestination a biblical perspective

[Butch5]

I did not say anything about giving a engagement ring at a marriage ceremony!
Engagement rings are given before the ceremony, not during! Go back and read every thing I said.

Here is what I was referring to, you said,

Our engagement ring has been given to us which is the Holy Spirit proofing we are already married, and belong to him!!

You said the ring has been given we are already married. I understood that as the ring was given sealed the marriage since you didn't use a comma before "before we are already married." How does having an engagement ring prove that one is already married.

No it's not! It is talking about those who are alive now, and believe in him will never die. The verse before it says, those that believe and do die shall live, AND those who are living now and believe shall never die!!.

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
John 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

What do you consider more important physical death, or spiritual death?

Look at the passage, "whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live". OK, so, the believe though he dies yet shall live. Shall live is future tense. This is after he dies. So, after he dies the believer shall live. Then He says "and everyone who lives." Who is this referring to? It's referring to the believer about which He just said, though he die, yet shall he live." Then He says, everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die." The sequence in this passage is pretty clear. one believes, dies, lives and shall never die. This fits what I said.

Believers die, eternal life is a life in which one doesn't. Instead of trying to prove me wrong why not reconcile the passages?

To answer your question, I consider physical death more important since there is no such thing as spiritual death, at least as it would pertain to a human.

 

[Butch5]

It certainly does matter when it happened. We who came to faith after Pentecost are the only ones given the Holy Spirit to indwell us. This had never happened before, and it will not happen after the church is gone. Paul called this the "mystery" or "secret" revealed to him, "Christ in us". If you mix contexts you'll reach erroneous conclusions.

Actually, it did happen in the past. John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit from birth. King Saul and King David both had the Holy Spirit. the Spirit of the Lord came on the prophets etc. However, the Holy Spirit isn't the issue in that post. Jesus told the disciple unless your righteousness surpasses that of the pharisees you will not see the kingdom. There's nothing mentioned about Holy Spirit. Jesus didn't any time limitations on that statement. I'm sensing an unwarranted dichotomy in these posts between the Jews and the Church, this would be off topic, however, I submit that it is unwarranted.

 

[Relentless]

Actually, it did happen in the past. John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit from birth. King Saul and King David both had the Holy Spirit. the Spirit of the Lord came on the prophets etc. However, the Holy Spirit isn't the issue in that post. Jesus told the disciple unless your righteousness surpasses that of the pharisees you will not see the kingdom. There's nothing mentioned about Holy Spirit. Jesus didn't any time limitations on that statement. I'm sensing an unwarranted dichotomy in these posts between the Jews and the Church, this would be off topic, however, I submit that it is unwarranted.

Filling with the Spirit was never universally and permanently applied to Jews, or to anyone else, before Pentecost. In contrast, all who place faith in the risen Jesus have the Holy Spirit permanently. This is what didn't happen in the past. And remember, Jesus was talking to Jewish disciples before Pentecost. He certainly did put limitations on it, as he told someone point blank that he had come "only for the lost sheep of Israel".

This dichotomy as you call it is certainly warranted. To mix "old and new wineskins" is exactly what Jesus said not to do. So I would submit that this is not only warranted, but commanded.

 

[Butch5]

Pharoah hardened his own heart after God endured with him for a long time. Pharoah being a vessel to dishonor, are we not told if we purge ourselves of the bad stuff we can become a vessal of honor?
We have to use "all" the scriptures.

Does God give our next heart beat? Does He give everyone their next heart beat?
If there is one scripture to follow that promises to extend our life then we are responsible for the next heart beat. Death and life are in the power of our tongue.

One more time Calvin............... For Jesus to be Lord over someone, they have to "Make" him Lord over them.

Are they not to confes with their mouth and believe in their heart Jesus is Lord?

If we obey not, is it not written in two places we become slaves to the thing we obey?

A person can't have two masters, two lords, Obey one and confess the other. It don't work like that.

You can't be a servant to one, and have a Lord your not subject to.

Rom 6:16 kjva Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

no doubt every knee shall bow, and tongue confess Jesus is Lord. It's one thing to call someone Lord, it's another to call them "YOUR" Lord. Even in the NT folks addressed him as Lord, but not their Lord.

Now you should Know Calvin.



1Co 7:23 kjva Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

1Co 6:19-20 kjva 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

I did not say something needs "Paid" for, I used in as in past tense.

At what point then does a new believer actually belong to God, spirit and body?

The price was Jesus going to the cross for us, that was what was paid.

I agree that Christ is the ransom that frees mankind, however, I'm not sure how that is a price paid for eternal life. Maybe in an abstract way that might be possible. The thing is Christ was the ransom to buy back mankind, yet not all men receive eternal life. It's only those who are forgiven that receive eternal life, those who sins aren't forgiven won't receive that life. I can see how the ransom makes it possible to receive eternal life. If that is the sense you were referring to then I can see that.

 

[CCW95A]

Here is what I was referring to, you said,

You said the ring has been given we are already married. I understood that as the ring was given sealed the marriage since you didn't use a comma before "before we are already married." How does having an engagement ring prove that one is already married.


Look at the passage, "whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live". OK, so, the believe though he dies yet shall live. Shall live is future tense. This is after he dies. So, after he dies the believer shall live. Then He says "and everyone who lives." Who is this referring to? It's referring to the believer about which He just said, though he die, yet shall he live." Then He says, everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die." The sequence in this passage is pretty clear. one believes, dies, lives and shall never die. This fits what I said.

Believers die, eternal life is a life in which one doesn't. Instead of trying to prove me wrong why not reconcile the passages?

To answer your question, I consider physical death more important since there is no such thing as spiritual death, at least as it would pertain to a human.

We are not our own, we have been bought with a price. We belong to God, we are his property! I can not think of anyone else I would rather belong to!

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Every body dies. No big deal there. This whole world is temporary, and every thing is passing away. The Christian who physically dies is still alive spiritually and will never die for he has eternal life. This life was given while he was still physically alive and will continue after his body fails to operate in this world.

 

[Butch5]

Filling with the Spirit was never universally and permanently applied to Jews, or to anyone else, before Pentecost. In contrast, all who place faith in the risen Jesus have the Holy Spirit permanently. This is what didn't happen in the past. And remember, Jesus was talking to Jewish disciples before Pentecost. He certainly did put limitations on it, as he told someone point blank that he had come "only for the lost sheep of Israel".

This dichotomy as you call it is certainly warranted. To mix "old and new wineskins" is exactly what Jesus said not to do. So I would submit that this is not only warranted, but commanded.

The filling with the Spirit, this is a concept that I'm not sure Christians have correct. The Greek word "en" that is often translated in also means among. In addition to that the word in is used metaphorically also, Consider Paul's statement.

KJV 2 Corinthians 7:16 I rejoice therefore that I have confidence in you in all things. (2Co 7:16 KJV)

Does Paul have this thing called confidence that is literally inside of the Corinthian Christians bodies? Of course not, "in you" is being used figuratively.

KJV Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, (Gal 4:19 KJV)

Is Paul saying that Jesus physical body is going to be formed inside the bodies of the Galatians? Of course not, it's figurative.

I believe since Paul uses "you" in the plural it give credit to the idea that he is saying among you and not necessarily in you.

So we have a literal usage, a figurative usage, and the possibility of other definitions.

Also, the "in you" concept presents some theological difficulties. If the Holy Spirit is actually present inside every believer, what happens when that believer sins? Is the Holy Spirit present in the midst of that sin? When a believer commits adultery is the Spirit there present in that act? I find that concept hard to believe. You see, this presents a problem to the idea that one is permanently indwelt with the Spirit. This is a problem that the "among you" interpretation doesn't have.

 

[Brother Paul]

Genesis 4 “And the Lord said unto Cain, Why are you angry, and why is your countenance fallen?If you do well, will you not also be accepted? But if you do not do well, sin lies at the door.”

Right here in the first book we see the Lord God speaking to Cain. Cain knew the Lord. The Lord speaks to him personally and audibly and Cain hears Him.

Cain had offered an insufficient offering (not blood = no atonement) but the Lord does not condemn Cain at this point but rather comes to him and offers him a chance to go and do well (by grace the offer is made, God owes him nothing) and He tells Cain if he does go and do it right he will also be accepted. In love ,He even warns Cain saying IF you do not do well sin lies at the door.

Obviously the Lord initiating by His prevenient grace gave the man a choice either to do or not to do. He tells him of the reward for doing right and the consequence of doing wrong. But Cain like his father Adam chooses to disregard the word of God and does what he has determined in his own heart (Genesis 3:5) to his own demise.

Now understand, God knew full well what Cain would choose and what he would do, but the choice had to be his so that he would be without excuse in God’s judgment of him. God did not make him make the wrong choice. For if He had, then the offer was a lie and an erroneous untrustworthy promise (but God is not a man that He should lie, neither does He tempt any man).

The same pattern is displayed all through the scriptures. God initiates by the Spirit through His word (since Christ the gospel which IS the power of God to salvation), then man freely responds, if they receive Him and heed Him He saves, if they reject Him He does not....He knows who will and who will not but foreknowing does not equal causing, the choice is theirs.


One of the points of Job is that Job is righteous (of faith) not because God manipulatively makes him so but that on his own Job believed God and staggered not at His sure word of promise. Satan’s attacks to bring him down would have been meaningless futility had Job just been a puppet not able to NOT remain faithful. Satan would have been trying to overcome God but that is not the case...he makes the point (an accusation against God) that the only reason he cannot take him down is because God has His hand on Him....so God says fine have at it and lofts His hand....but Job has faith.

 

[Butch5]

Filling with the Spirit was never universally and permanently applied to Jews, or to anyone else, before Pentecost. In contrast, all who place faith in the risen Jesus have the Holy Spirit permanently. This is what didn't happen in the past. And remember, Jesus was talking to Jewish disciples before Pentecost. He certainly did put limitations on it, as he told someone point blank that he had come "only for the lost sheep of Israel".

This dichotomy as you call it is certainly warranted. To mix "old and new wineskins" is exactly what Jesus said not to do. So I would submit that this is not only warranted, but commanded.

Yes, Jesus did say He had only come to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And, yes there are passages of Scripture that pertain to certain people and not others. However, when Jesus sent out the apostles at the Great Commission He told them to go to the nations, ethnos, Gentiles, and make disciples, teaching them all of have commanded you. So, the teachings of Jesus are for the Gentiles and not just the Jews.

Regarding the wine skins, I submit Jesus wasn't referring to the Jews and the Gentiles, He was referring to the old Covenant and the new. The new wine is the Gospel, the old wine the Law, the new wine skins, the apostles the old wine skins the Pharisees/Sadducee .

The Christians hope is the same as that of the Jews.

 

[By Faith]

I agree that Christ is the ransom that frees mankind, however, I'm not sure how that is a price paid for eternal life. Maybe in an abstract way that might be possible. The thing is Christ was the ransom to buy back mankind, yet not all men receive eternal life. It's only those who are forgiven that receive eternal life, those who sins aren't forgiven won't receive that life. I can see how the ransom makes it possible to receive eternal life. If that is the sense you were referring to then I can see that.

Right Butch!!

Now, if the issue was "All" our sins and we needed the Holy Spirit and process of renewing our mind to walk out our own salvation with fear and trembling, then accepting Jesus as Lord would start that process into making us a perfect man as we have lots of sins and wrong thinking even on the day we recieve Jesus.

Paul said babes in Christ are carnal. We say that scripture.

But..................

If there was just ONE sin that would get the unsaved in Hell, and all the other sins a person commited was not counted against them, then just accepting Jesus would be enough to recieve eternal life.

Joh 16:8-9 kjva 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Joh 3:16-18 kjva 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Mar 16:16 kjva He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

See Butch? The only sin a unsaved person can commit is not to believe Jesus is the Son of God, and is their saviour. A person just believing on Jesus and is baptised is saved. A person that does not believe on Jesus is not saved.

Just one sin.

1Jn 2:2 kjva And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

So every sin a person has commited, has been paid for. The only step now is to believe on the one who paid for them.

Just that belief on Him makes us a babe in Christ, needing milk.

2Co 5:17-19 kjva 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

God has already reconciled the Whole World unto Himself, not counting sin against anyone. The ony sin the Holy Spirit is repoving people on is not believing on Jesus.

All they have to do, is go get their ticket by believing on Jesus to enter eternal life. That is it, nothing else is being counted against anyone.

Without that ticket though, the step to become in Christ and a babe in Christ. They get judged and go to hell when they die. All they need to do is accept that price paid.

Now there is lots of growth, and there is rewards for the faithful, there is a race to run.

All those things are a process. Some obey God fully, some half obey God and all the works are tried as by fire. If a mans works get burnt up, He is still saved but has nothing to show.

I hope this makes more sense.

 

[Butch5]

We are not our own, we have been bought with a price. We belong to God, we are his property! I can not think of anyone else I would rather belong to!

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Every body dies. No big deal there. This whole world is temporary, and every thing is passing away. The Christian who physically dies is still alive spiritually and will never die for he has eternal life. This life was given while he was still physically alive and will continue after his body fails to operate in this world.

That's not correct. The Scripture don't teach that man is a spirit, that idea comes from Greek Philosophy. Man is not spiritually alive or spiritually dead. Man is a flesh and bone being that has one spirit/breath in and that spirit /breath is the breath of life that God gives to every living being. That's all there is Gen 2:7 tells us how God created man.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:1 KJV)

The passage says that God form the man from the dust of the ground. So, whatever man is he is of the dust of the ground. There is nothing here about man being a spirit. Then we see that God did put His spirit in man, the breath/spirit of life, and the man became a living soul. We can see from this that the man is of the earth and when God's breath of life is breathed into him man then becomes animated, a living soul. That's it, there's no mention of any other spirit.

 

[Relentless]

The filling with the Spirit, this is a concept that I'm not sure Christians have correct. The Greek word "en" that is often translated in also means among....

So we have a literal usage, a figurative usage, and the possibility of other definitions.

Also, the "in you" concept presents some theological difficulties. If the Holy Spirit is actually present inside every believer, what happens when that believer sins? Is the Holy Spirit present in the midst of that sin? When a believer commits adultery is the Spirit there present in that act? I find that concept hard to believe. You see, this presents a problem to the idea that one is permanently indwelt with the Spirit. This is a problem that the "among you" interpretation doesn't have.

I think you're still mixing contexts and committing fallacies; see http://www.fether.net/index.php?page=2010/03/19/preaching-from-the-dictionary/

Whether it means "in" or "with" depends on context, and when the context isn't clear, neither meaning can be taken as the "right" one. So even if "with" is technically permissible, it isn't necessarily right. In the case of "filled with the Spirit", "in" would make no sense. To be filled with something has meaning, but to be filled in something does not. Neither would "among" make any sense in that context. And in none of the passages I cited about the Spirit as "a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance" does "in, with, among" even apply. You still can't take the meaning of a word in one place and arbitrarily apply that meaning in another place.

As for the Spirit-filled believer who sins, you seem to think that having the Spirit means no longer having ourselves, as if we cease to exist once filled with the Spirit. This is certainly not the case. The Spirit can be "grieved", so who is grieving the Spirit if we no longer exist? And who is being grieved if the Spirit is not in us? The problem is presented to the idea that the Spirit is not literally in us. Or who do we pray to when we pray silently? Is the Spirit merely hovering next to each of us? This is not to say the Spirit participates in our sin; not at all. This is rather to say that we are sealed with the mark of ownership of God Himself, though we as individual human beings still struggle with our own wills.

To say that the Spirit being only "among" us does indeed have difficulties. A seal is not applied to some kind of group faith or salvation, but to each individual. Neither are the rewards believers are promised only given on the basis of the group of believers, but to each individual.

 

[Relentless]

Yes, Jesus did say He had only come to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And, yes there are passages of Scripture that pertain to certain people and not others. However, when Jesus sent out the apostles at the Great Commission He told them to go to the nations, ethnos, Gentiles, and make disciples, teaching them all of have commanded you. So, the teachings of Jesus are for the Gentiles and not just the Jews.

Regarding the wine skins, I submit Jesus wasn't referring to the Jews and the Gentiles, He was referring to the old Covenant and the new. The new wine is the Gospel, the old wine the Law, the new wine skins, the apostles the old wine skins the Pharisees/Sadducee .

The Christians hope is the same as that of the Jews.

As I said, Jesus' words before his death and resurrection are not in the same context as his words after that. So in your example you cite a time just before Jesus ascended to heaven after his resurrection, and this is when he told them to wait for "power from on high" before going out beyond Jerusalem. In other words, only after Pentecost, when the Spirit came upon each individual believer, was the Great Commission to be begun. So this example you gave proves my point.

As for the wine skins, he was indeed referring to two covenants. But that new covenant, as he explained at the Last Supper, was "in his blood", which was given for the whole world. So the Jew/Gentile meaning applies as well.

 

[Butch5]

Right Butch!!

Now, if the issue was "All" our sins and we needed the Holy Spirit and process of renewing our mind to walk out our own salvation with fear and trembling, then accepting Jesus as Lord would start that process into making us a perfect man as we have lots of sins and wrong thinking even on the day we recieve Jesus.

Paul said babes in Christ are carnal. We say that scripture.

But..................

If there was just ONE sin that would get the unsaved in Hell, and all the other sins a person commited was not counted against them, then just accepting Jesus would be enough to recieve eternal life.

Joh 16:8-9 kjva 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Joh 3:16-18 kjva 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Mar 16:16 kjva He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

See Butch? The only sin a unsaved person can commit is not to believe Jesus is the Son of God, and is their saviour. A person just believing on Jesus and is baptised is saved. A person that does not believe on Jesus is not saved.

Just one sin.

1Jn 2:2 kjva And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

So every sin a person has commited, has been paid for. The only step now is to believe on the one who paid for them.

Just that belief on Him makes us a babe in Christ, needing milk.

2Co 5:17-19 kjva 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

God has already reconciled the Whole World unto Himself, not counting sin against anyone. The ony sin the Holy Spirit is repoving people on is not believing on Jesus.

All they have to do, is go get their ticket by believing on Jesus to enter eternal life. That is it, nothing else is being counted against anyone.

Without that ticket though, the step to become in Christ and a babe in Christ. They get judged and go to hell when they die. All they need to do is accept that price paid.

Now there is lots of growth, and there is rewards for the faithful, there is a race to run.

All those things are a process. Some obey God fully, some half obey God and all the works are tried as by fire. If a mans works get burnt up, He is still saved but has nothing to show.

I hope this makes more sense.

It makes sense. I see differently, however. I don't see everyone's sins forgiven. The ransom was not a payment to God, it was to ransom man from Satan. That is why man having been redeemed is still guilty of his sins against God. That is why even though Jesus is the ransom for mankind not all mankind is saved. The Scriptures are replete with statements about God forgiving sins. Payment and forgiveness of the same debt are mutually exclusive. If a debt is forgiven it isn't paid, likewise, if it's paid it isn't forgiven.

 

[Butch5]

As I said, Jesus' words before his death and resurrection are not in the same context as his words after that. So in your example you cite a time just before Jesus ascended to heaven after his resurrection, and this is when he told them to wait for "power from on high" before going out beyond Jerusalem. In other words, only after Pentecost, when the Spirit came upon each individual believer, was the Great Commission to be begun. So this example you gave proves my point.

As for the wine skins, he was indeed referring to two covenants. But that new covenant, as he explained at the Last Supper, was "in his blood", which was given for the whole world. So the Jew/Gentile meaning applies as well.

As I pointed out, He told the apostles to make disciples.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: {teach...: or, make disciples, or, Christians of all nations} 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Mat 28:1 KJV)

That's a pretty clear statement, teach them all things I have commanded you. Again, no time frame. He didn't say teach them all things I commanded you from this date to that date, He said all things I have commanded you.

As I said, the hope of the Christian is the same hope of the Jew. There's no difference.

 

[CCW95A]

First, we are missing the scripture that God foreknew who would pick to get saved and not get saved. We have a scripture that say or at least hints at that before the foundation of the World, we were predestined to be in Christ Jesus.

That does not say what your saying it says. I am talking about "Before the foundation of the World"

We have a few that say "From the foundation of the world"

You would also need a scripture that Man is around before the body is formed. We do have a couple that indicate the spirit is made when the body is first formed.

You are describing some form of Pentoastal Armainian doctrine.

However, you don't even believe what you just typed to me. Once you actually think about it, you will realize it don't make sense.

This is the problem with reliegion and just believing things we hear others say.

I'll explain more and with scripture later, it's late.

You can't believe in "Foreknowledge" You have to be Calvinist.

God makes the spirit of man (Before the foundation of the World) God knows that spirit won't accept Jesus as God sees the end, from the begging. Yet, God makes the spirit anyway and puts it in man whom is on their way to hell.

That is election, that is not foreknowledge.

If I know putting a dry towel on my stove and turning on the burners will catch it fire, yet do it anyway knowing what will happen is not my great and wonderful foreknowledge.

It's me causing a fire.

The only other thing you could believe is God makes all the people with no thought or purpose, then looks in the crystal ball at each one and determines what will happen to each one. Something else outside of God is making that choice, and God just picks up on it.

However, it's written what we choose is recorded, to bare record in heaven and in earth. It's recorded for a reason, and not beause God already knew else he would not have to record it.

Think about it........... You have to be calvinist, and man does not have free will. To know something, and yet set the conditions and place knowing is not foreknowledge, it's causing.

My hope is you catch this in scriptures and save me posting 50 of them.

Be blessed.

Right off the bat you are still not seeing what I wrote, No where did I say God chooses who would be saved and who will not. Man is ultimately responsible for his salvation. It is mans choice weather or not he will be a child of God. This is why I said more people fight over this more than any other thing in the Bible, because they simply do not understand it. The Lord God knew from the beginning your choice, in fact he knows every thought, and every word that will come forth from your mouth, and he knew this from the beginning. No, I am not a "Calvinist" or any other man made up words that describe people.
There is no way man could ever be saved without God knowing what would happen, even in the garden. You can not take humanity and place him back into the first Adam as he was already tainted with sin. There had to be another with seed, and without sin to save man. The Devil knew God could not save man using his existing man, which is why he killed Jesus. If he had known what the Lord had done he would have never crucified the Lord of Glory. It was a mystery hidden in God that he told no body about. But we do get glimpses of it through out scripture.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

This goes way back to the beginning. Notice in verse 4 in him (the Word, Christ) was life. Then it tells us exactly what that life was. the life was the light of men. !!! It did not say that the light was God, as God is light, it said the light of men. Men where alive in the Word, that was in the beginning!!!!
I wonder who these men where? It is very simple to know as God the Father told his Son Jesus to ask him for the nations (different tongues, and nations) and I will give them to you for your inheritance!!! This was before the creation of the worlds.

Psa 2:6 "As for me, I have set my King on Zion, my holy hill."
Psa 2:7 I will tell of the decree: The LORD said to me, "You are my Son; today I have begotten you.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession.
Psa 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel." (ESV)

The very first thing in the beginning was God the Father bringing forth his Son (word)
The father tells his Son to ask for the nations and I will give them to you... We know Jesus asked for this and received it as it tells us this in the Book of Revelations....

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Then in verse 9 Jesus tells this to those who overcome. They also shall do the same....

Psa 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

The word rule actually means to teach....The vessels that shall be broken are doctrines of men that the Word destroys and breaks into pieces that are not of the truth.

 

[Big Moose]

The question becomes, "What did God predestine?" He knew we would fall and sin, but was that fall and sin predestined, something that God wanted and created on purpose? Is it God's will that we sin? Are we following God's will when we sin?
Of course not. It is not sin and disobedience which is predestined. He has a plan for us which is predestined. Most have not accepted their "Plan". Those who accept Jesus start their "Plan". Many fall away from the plan and never attain completion. The Spirit helps to guide us to get back on track with the "Plan".
It is not predestined that we accept the "Plan". The "Plan" for us is what is predestined. That is how we can be predestined to be sons of God and yet disobey. This disobedience is not predestined. What God wants for us is.
This is how I can make sense of :
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

2 Peter 1:4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

One cannot desire all to be saved and then create individuals knowing full well which individuals, specifically, can never be saved from eternal destruction.

May God bless you

 

[Butch5]

I think you're still mixing contexts and committing fallacies; see http://www.fether.net/index.php?page=2010/03/19/preaching-from-the-dictionary/

Whether it means "in" or "with" depends on context, and when the context isn't clear, neither meaning can be taken as the "right" one. So even if "with" is technically permissible, it isn't necessarily right. In the case of "filled with the Spirit", "in" would make no sense. To be filled with something has meaning, but to be filled in something does not. Neither would "among" make any sense in that context. And in none of the passages I cited about the Spirit as "a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance" does "in, with, among" even apply. You still can't take the meaning of a word in one place and arbitrarily apply that meaning in another place.

Those passage weren't the subject of the post, you're statement about the permanently spirit filled believer was.

As for the Spirit-filled believer who sins, you seem to think that having the Spirit means no longer having ourselves, as if we cease to exist once filled with the Spirit. This is certainly not the case. The Spirit can be "grieved", so who is grieving the Spirit if we no longer exist? And who is being grieved if the Spirit is not in us? The problem is presented to the idea that the Spirit is not literally in us. Or who do we pray to when we pray silently? Is the Spirit merely hovering next to each of us? This is not to say the Spirit participates in our sin; not at all. This is rather to say that we are sealed with the mark of ownership of God Himself, though we as individual human beings still struggle with our own wills.

I believe this is a straw man. The point of the post was the presence or non presence of the Holy Spirit when a believer sins. Please explain how, if one is permanently indwelt with the Spirit, the spirit would not be present when that one sins?

To say that the Spirit being only "among" us does indeed have difficulties. A seal is not applied to some kind of group faith or salvation, but to each individual. Neither are the rewards believers are promised only given on the basis of the group of believers, but to each individual.

If the Scriptures are speaking of singular individuals one could argue that, however, that would first have to be shown.

 

[Relentless]

As I pointed out, He told the apostles to make disciples.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: {teach...: or, make disciples, or, Christians of all nations} 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Mat 28:1 KJV)

That's a pretty clear statement, teach them all things I have commanded you. Again, no time frame. He didn't say teach them all things I commanded you from this date to that date, He said all things I have commanded you.

As I said, the hope of the Christian is the same hope of the Jew. There's no difference.

Yet they weren't to go out and do this until the Holy Spirit came. And what did Jesus command them? Did it have anything to do with the laws of Moses? No. He told them that this new covenant had only one law: to love God and people. He told them to be holy, but never tied this holiness to observance of the old law.

But you're missing the point about how Israel had rejected their King, and so the promised "gospel of the kingdom" was also rejected. In the face of that, not only would their Temple and Jerusalem be destroyed, but God would turn to the Gentiles. And what do we see in scripture about what the Gentile believers were told? Look at Acts 15, the Jerusalem Council. Was it anything to do with Judaism beyond being sensitive to their taboos against eating meat with blood still in it, and to abstain from sexual promiscuity? No. Jesus never taught his disciples to perpetuate Jewish law for the church, because he taught a new covenant.

But what Jesus said about the kingdom of God was the announcement given to the nation of Israel exclusively. Everything he said about their law, such as tithing, was said to those under the law. And if you don't believe me, then believe the writer of Hebrews. That whole Letter is all about the inferiority and end of the laws of Moses for those who are in Christ. So here again, the "all things" Jesus taught them was nothing about the old Law.

 

[Relentless]

Those passage weren't the subject of the post, you're statement about the permanently spirit filled believer was.



I believe this is a straw man. The point of the post was the presence or non presence of the Holy Spirit when a believer sins. Please explain how, if one is permanently indwelt with the Spirit, the spirit would not be present when that one sins?



If the Scriptures are speaking of singular individuals one could argue that, however, that would first have to be shown.

My response was about the Spirit permanently indwelling each believer literally. But you brought up the issue of "with" vs. "in" vs. "among", so I addressed that too.

No straw man on my part. I explained as best I could that being indwelt by the Spirit does not mean we are no longer still human beings and sinners. I never said the Spirit would not be present; that's your straw man. I said the Spirit did not participate in our sins. There is no mutually-exclusive relationship between indwelling of the Spirit and our still being sinners.

As for individuals, surely you remember that on Pentecost the Spirit split up and landed on each individual, rather than one "tongue of fire" over the whole group. There are also many other incidences recorded in Acts where individuals were "filled with the Spirit". I don't know why you're finding this individual filling so hard to accept.

 

[By Faith]

Personally, I think you are confusing 'Make' with 'acknowledge'.
Perhaps if you ever go over to the UK, you might like to let the Queen know that you have decided to make her Queen....or not. Do you have authority to do that?

Mat 6:27. And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life?
Luk 12:25. And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life?

I don't know how you can think that you exist apart from the will of God..I really don't.

Exo .7:1 And the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet.
Exo 7:2. You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall tell Pharaoh to let the people of Israel go out of his land.
Exo 7:3. But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt,
Exo 7:4 . Pharaoh will not listen to you. ...................................................
Sure thttp://community.linuxmint.com/here are passages that speak of Pharaoh hardening his own heart, but in the whole context of the exodus incident, the Lord God was in absolute control hardening pharaoh's heart.
I'm not going to cut and paste half of Exodus though.
another:
Deu 2:30. But Sihon the king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him, for the LORD your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that he might give him into your hand, as he is this day.

From your profile page::
"I stick to scriptures only"
Pleased to read that!
You will be able to show scripture that tells us we have the authority to 'make' Jesus Lord?

Learn something here..................

Exo 3:19 kjva And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand.

How is God sure? Because God knows Pharoah. God is pretty sure before the whole thing starts that it's going to take a strong hand against Pharoah.

Why? Because Pharoah is already in a bad heart condition before the thing even starts.

Exo 3:20 kjva And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and after that he will let you go.

God said, once I beat on Pharoah a bit, He will let you go.

This is before any hearts where so called hardened.

Exo 4:8-9 kjva 8 And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe thee, neither hearken to the voice of the first sign, that they will believe the voice of the latter sign. 9 And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe also these two signs, neither hearken unto thy voice, that thou shalt take of the water of the river, and pour it upon the dry land: and the water which thou takest out of the river shall become blood upon the dry land.

God said, if they don't believe your voice on the first sign, they will hearken after the next sign............... That should fix it, because God knows Pharoah.

God said they will listen after the second sign................ BUT

If Pharoah does not, The first Two signs...... Then we turn Water to blood.

God said they would believe.......... but just in case, we go with the Blood trick. Why? Because God is being kind to Pharoah, knows he is hardened, and figures the first sign should be enough.

Now, a whole bunch of stuff went down with bricks and Pharoah from this point. God is going by knowing Pharoah but later actions show God that Pharoah would most likely not listen to a few signs.

You also don't understand tenses in Hebrew. Hebrew did not have a passive tense that translated well into English.

Exo 7:13 YLT and the heart of Pharaoh is strong, and he hath not hearkened unto them, as Jehovah hath spoken.

Exo 7:13 kjva And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Young fixed these issues in lots of places............ And He hardened is not in the Hebrew, we can thank the translators for that.

How was Pharoah's heart hardened? What did God do?

God helps out Pharoah's own magic users.

Exo 7:22 kjv+ And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.

Exo 8:15 kjva But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Pharoah is doing this to himself. God was willing to just give one sign, and if that did not work then another sign.

Exo 8:32 kjva And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

Here it is again............ It is Pharoah hardening his own heart........by what He is seeing.

That's 3 times now............ Pharoah does it to himself.

Exo 9:11-12 kjva 11 And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils; for the boil was upon the magicians, and upon all the Egyptians. 12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

How God do this? through another sign.

Exo 9:34 kjva And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.

God 2 with signs Pharoah believed.
Pharoah 4 on his own.

God rally's in though with more signs

Rom 9:22 kjva What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

So, it was not God. God was willing to just do one sign, and two if needed. It was Pharoah first.
That is Scripture ONLY.

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Rom 6:16 kjva Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

So, if you don't obey the Lord Jesus as Head of the Church, do what He says do. Then you say He is still Lord over your life?

You can have two masters.......... That is what your saying.

Luk 6:46-47 kjva 46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? 47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

Jesus said, Why are you calling me Lord, but you don't do what I say.

Jesus must also be wrong.............. according to Calvin.