Doctrinal Authority

[Major]

Well mate you've totally confused me as I do not understand what you are saying. It certainly is not what I have been saying, Just go back and read all the scriptures I have posted and let the Word speak for itself. And, take time to study the process of salvation and the making of the New Man, according to scripture. God bless.

My dear sister, what is happening here and why you are seeing some push back at your comments is because you have an agenda which is not necessarily Biblical.
It is apparent that what you believe you are passionate about but it simply does not conform to Bible doctrine. If it did then you would not have to be working so hard to convince the good people here on it.

It does seem to be denominationally correct and I would say that is where your agenda is at.

 

[Leemg]

Just a question for clarification, is my salvation dependent on my ability to "study the process of salvation," or is Christ able to save me regardless of what I think or don't think about the "process?"

That's a loaded question of which I cannot answer unless I was able to sit before you and really get an understanding of your actual spiritual location. The bottom line is the Lord is quite able to save all men.

 

[Major]

Are you not aware that Jesus was speaking of the natural, Adamic Man (old man) in Matt.15:19 and not the New Man who has the heart and mind of Christ? It is important to understand what dispensation the event, speaker etc. is refering to. Understanding context is important brother. Jesus was speaking to a people who had not yet been born again.

After salvation we do not have that heart of sin:

Ezekiel 36
25"Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

Do you really believe that the HEART and MIND OF CHRIST is filled evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander? I hope not!

Now you are trying to say something I did not say my dear.

1st of all lets consider your explanation of Matthew 15:19. you are saying and said that...........
" Jesus was speaking to a people who had not yet been born again."

Then you advised me that........... "Understanding context is important brother."

Just for you my sister, I have been teaching that for almost 50 years but you point is well taken, I just hope you will be receptive to that exact comment.

CONTEXT! Matthew 15:19 was the point of the comment and you said........"Jesus was speaking to a people who had not yet been born again".

I call your attention to Matthew 15-11 where Jesus IS speaking to a multitude where they are not saved. But we need CONTEXT so I call your attention to Verse 12.............
"THEN came His disciples and said unto him.............."

That means Jesus was not speaking to the unsaved multitude but instead to HIS DISCIPLES.

Would you like to re-think your....CONTEXT?

 

[Leemg]

Now you are trying to say something I did not say my dear.

1st of all lets consider your explanation of Matthew 15:19. you are saying and said that...........
" Jesus was speaking to a people who had not yet been born again."

Then you advised me that........... "Understanding context is important brother."

Just for you my sister, I have been teaching that for almost 50 years but you point is well taken, I just hope you will be receptive to that exact comment.

CONTEXT! Matthew 15:19 was the point of the comment and you said........"Jesus was speaking to a people who had not yet been born again".

I call your attention to Matthew 15-11 where Jesus IS speaking to a multitude where they are not saved. But we need CONTEXT so I call your attention to Verse 12.............
"THEN came His disciples and said unto him.............."

That means Jesus was not speaking to the unsaved multitude but instead to HIS DISCIPLES.

Would you like to re-think your....CONTEXT?

I still stand on what I said because the Disciples were not yet saved either. Pentacost had not yet arrived brother. It was after Pentacost that even their eyes were opened. Much of what Jesus taught when He was on earth they had a hard time comprehending. There eyes were opened with understanding after they received the infilling of Christ's Spirit.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot SEE the kingdom of God. Then Jesus goes on and basically repeats it again and said: he cannot ENTER into the kingdom of God. John 3:5

 

[Leemg]

My dear sister, what is happening here and why you are seeing some push back at your comments is because you have an agenda which is not necessarily Biblical.
It is apparent that what you believe you are passionate about but it simply does not conform to Bible doctrine. If it did then you would not have to be working so hard to convince the good people here on it.

It does seem to be denominationally correct and I would say that is where your agenda is at.

I have no problem with any kind of push back as you call it. I really only see that from one or two. What is important is that Truth be exalted because truth is always sufficient. The Lord does the rest. He gives the increase.

 

[Leemg]

Not so my sister. You have missed the whole thing. We are saints, saved by the grace of God and forgiven of our sins and the death penalty is removed HOWEVER
our sin nature is NOT destroyed!!!!

We as Christians are SAVED SINNERS but sinners none the less. Our new nature is to hate sin and do good but just as Paul said in Romans 7.......
"I do not know how to do that".

John says in 1 John 1:8 and 10.......
"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us . . . if we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

So John goes so far as to tell Christians that it is a sin to say you are sinless.

This is not truth. We have over and over given scriptures that support the FACT that the old man is dead. Christ died to set us free from the captivity of sin and destroyed its power in the life of true born again sons of God. You just keep digging up that old man that was destroyed and buried. You prop him up on his gravestone and keep trying to give him life but it is impossible. Saints are not sinners. Sinners are sinners. ..... Those who can't help sinning because they are still held captive by the sin nature and the Law of sin and death.

Sons of God are ruled by the Law of Life in Christ Jesus and have the power given, as partakers of the Divine Nature, to walk free of sin by choice. The old man or body of sin is dead. Keep him buried mate. Go through the scriptures we have already posted that support everything I have said here. For example: Romans 6

Actually, read all of Romans....as a start. God bless.

 

[Leemg]

Then we are twins my brother!

Brothers, it will take a revelation from the Holy Spirit in you to come to this understanding. Ask Him....

 

[CCW95A]

I have no problem with any kind of push back as you call it. I really only see that from one or two. What is important is that Truth be exalted because truth is always sufficient. The Lord does the rest. He gives the increase.

Leemg, After becoming "born again" we still have problems with the flesh which surrounds our heart, and soul. Surely Christ who is now our life is sinless, and can never sin for he is God. Then we have our own flesh which is ready to sin at any time. Just give it what it wants you will fall big time.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

This lusting between spirit and flesh continues even after being "born again". Not until we receive our new supernatural bodies does this stop happening. Any Christian will tell you this as it is a continue struggle day by day. Which is why so many believers are always asking these kinds of questions as to why they have this problem after coming to Jesus for salvation.

 

[Leemg]

Leemg, After becoming "born again" we still have problems with the flesh which surrounds our heart, and soul. Surely Christ who is now our life is sinless, and can never sin for he is God. Then we have our own flesh which is ready to sin at any time. Just give it what it wants you will fall big time.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

This lusting between spirit and flesh continues even after being "born again". Not until we receive our new supernatural bodies does this stop happening. Any Christian will tell you this as it is a continue struggle day by day. Which is why so many believers are always asking these kinds of questions as to why they have this problem after coming to Jesus for salvation.

Sorry but I do not agree with you and I believe the Word of God does not support what you are saying. It is apparent in these scriptures and many, many more that if the son of God walks after the Spirit then there is no condemnation. There is no continual struggle of any kind with sin when you walk in the Spirit. This takes suffering in the flesh and obedience to the Spirit.

 

[CCW95A]

Sorry but I do not agree with you and I believe the Word of God does not support what you are saying. It is apparent in these scriptures and many, many more that if the son of God walks after the Spirit then there is no condemnation. There is no continual struggle of any kind with sin when you walk in the Spirit. This takes suffering in the flesh and obedience to the Spirit.

Do you know anyone who never has this problem of the "flesh" in this life? There is no one that I know of, and I have been saved many many years, or any one I ever heard of either. The truth is, we all struggle with the flesh, and if this was not true than the Word of God would not tell us walk in the Spirit, and not in the flesh. Is a baby born who already knows how to walk and jump with out ever falling down?

 

[Major]

Do you know anyone who never has this problem of the "flesh" in this life? There is no one that I know of, and I have been saved many many years, or any one I ever heard of either. The truth is, we all struggle with the flesh, and if this was not true than the Word of God would not tell us walk in the Spirit, and not in the flesh.

Absolutely correct!
We struggle with the flesh because we are sinners and sinners sin and that is why Paul said he was chief among all sinner!

 

[Major]

Sorry but I do not agree with you and I believe the Word of God does not support what you are saying. It is apparent in these scriptures and many, many more that if the son of God walks after the Spirit then there is no condemnation. There is no continual struggle of any kind with sin when you walk in the Spirit. This takes suffering in the flesh and obedience to the Spirit.

And right here we see the problem. Even when shown the error of your statement with the CONTEXT of the Biblical meaning you still refuse to accept the Word of God over your preconceived agenda.

1 John 1:8 and 10.......
"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us . . . if we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

 

[Major]

This is not truth. We have over and over given scriptures that support the FACT that the old man is dead. Christ died to set us free from the captivity of sin and destroyed its power in the life of true born again sons of God. You just keep digging up that old man that was destroyed and buried. You prop him up on his gravestone and keep trying to give him life but it is impossible. Saints are not sinners. Sinners are sinners. ..... Those who can't help sinning because they are still held captive by the sin nature and the Law of sin and death.

Sons of God are ruled by the Law of Life in Christ Jesus and have the power given, as partakers of the Divine Nature, to walk free of sin by choice. The old man or body of sin is dead. Keep him buried mate. Go through the scriptures we have already posted that support everything I have said here. For example: Romans 6

Actually, read all of Romans....as a start. God bless.

Don't you think that...."Actually, read all of Romans....as a start." is really condescending???

Do you really think that myself and the others here have not read Romans. Some of us have actually written commentaries and study guides on Romans my sister.

Having said that shall we consider Romans 7:15-20.......
"For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 the law, that it is good. 17 it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me."

Beloved, these words were spoken by a saved born again man. Paul recognized the presence of the flesh.

In as nice a way as I can say it, the teaching of a "sinlessness of the flesh" is a really false teaching that is a IMO perversion of the Word of God. Paul consistently preached the opposite. Our bodies will not be redeemed, no matter how much we may be blessed or filled with the Holy Spirit until the redemption of the body of Christ at His 2nd Coming. Until that time SIN will still be in our flesh, although those who obey with the heart that word of the cross unto which they have been delivered.

God does not want us to sin but a believer in fact does still sin. WHEN we do we have an advocate with the Father, the God man the Lord Jesus Christ, who did no sin, and He pleads our case because He is our propitiation.

1 John 2:1-2
"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not, And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

 

[Major]

I still stand on what I said because the Disciples were not yet saved either. Pentacost had not yet arrived brother. It was after Pentacost that even their eyes were opened. Much of what Jesus taught when He was on earth they had a hard time comprehending. There eyes were opened with understanding after they received the infilling of Christ's Spirit.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot SEE the kingdom of God. Then Jesus goes on and basically repeats it again and said: he cannot ENTER into the kingdom of God. John 3:5

I can not agree with you sister. You are giving opinions and clearly not a Biblical basis for truth.

Jn. 3:3 as you quoted is absolutely correct and if one is born again HE CAN SEE the Kingdom of God. Now for CONTEXT.......Peter, James and John did see the kingdom of God as explained in Mark 9:1-9 WHICH WAS BEFORE PENTECOST!!!

Therefore, the proper CONTEXT of John 3:3 and 3:7 shows being born again equals the saving faith in Jesus mentioned in John 3:16.
So in light of that the question now is, could anyone believe on Jesus before Pentecost? Again, BIBLE answer is YES!. People were forgiven, saved and received everlasting life before the cross and before Pentecost. Please read and consider Lk. 7:50; 19:9.

Then secondly, please know the disciples did receive the Spirit when Jesus breathed on them BEFORE Pentecost in Jn. 20:22, which also tends to disrupt the theology of some! Acts 1:8 is the vital point about Pentecost.

 

[Roads]

I still stand on what I said because the Disciples were not yet saved either. Pentacost had not yet arrived brother.

No one in history could be saved before pentacost? Like, you believe everyone (Moses, Abraham, the thief on the cross next to Jesus) before pentacost went to hell?

 

[Roads]

That's a loaded question of which I cannot answer unless I was able to sit before you and really get an understanding of your actual spiritual location. The bottom line is the Lord is quite able to save all men.

My spiritual location: ask me anything you want. (I didn't think it was a loaded question!)

 

[Leemg]

Do you know anyone who never has this problem of the "flesh" in this life? There is no one that I know of, and I have been saved many many years, or any one I ever heard of either. The truth is, we all struggle with the flesh, and if this was not true than the Word of God would not tell us walk in the Spirit, and not in the flesh. Is a baby born who already knows how to walk and jump with out ever falling down?

We do not struggle with any sin or flesh when we walk in the spirit which takes mortifying the flesh and obedience to the Holy Spirit in us. It seems you do not read the part that I have said now twice. It takes "by CHOICE", obedience to the Spirit. Submission to the Spirit - to Christ in us. If we have any struggle with sin, it is because we choose to walk according to the flesh and not according to the Spirit. That is a choice.

 

[Roads]

Whatever terms or concepts that you believe are foreign to you or that what I have spoken is a what you call a "logical system of salvation" just tells me you do not understand.

I can tell you I don't understand that sentence! You use terms that aren't in the Bible, like "our soul has usurped authority over the Christ in us and has made a choice to sin." I can't find any scriptures that might give me some clues about what you might mean by that. It might make it easier for us to understand what you mean if you just use terms from scripture to explain it. Like, is "my soul" not the same thing as "me?" Wouldn't it just be simpler to say that we sin when "we don't submit to Christ in us, and we make a choice to sin"? If you said that, I'd agree. The "soul" business is the hang up, perhaps?

I can't find a comment where I talked about a "logical system of salvation"? If you show me where the comment it is, I might be able to have some more context for what I would have meant by that.

But you can if you continue in the Word "with a pure heart" and study to make yourself approved.

Is this approval that comes from "study" a different type of approval than the one described in, say Romans 4:7-8, or, say, Acts 10:34-35?

 

[Leemg]

No one in history could be saved before pentacost? Like, you believe everyone (Moses, Abraham, the thief on the cross next to Jesus) before pentacost went to hell?

Different dispensations.
The old patriarchs went to what scripture calls paradise or Abraham’s bosom to wait upon their redeemer...Christ released them when He rose by the power of the Holy Spirit from hell. They had to wait until redemption was accomplished by Jesus.

 

[Leemg]

And right here we see the problem. Even when shown the error of your statement with the CONTEXT of the Biblical meaning you still refuse to accept the Word of God over your preconceived agenda.

1 John 1:8 and 10.......
"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us . . . if we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

I explained this scripture already to you. Read the entire passage in 1 John. Don't just pull out one scripture.

There is NO DARKNESS IN THE LORD. If we as sons of God have chosen to sin or have any kind of darkness or sin in us, then we are told to repent because there is NO fellowship with God if there is any darkness in us. If we are in any sin or darkness, He tells us don't deceive yourself and think or say you have fellowship with Him because that's a lie and the truth isn't in you. So repent and walk in the light so you can have fellowship with Him and one another.

5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.