Icons and Prayer Ropes???

Hmmm. I am glad YOU said that and not me.

By no means do I say it to create tension of course. Although there ought to be some consistency and logic with this subject, no? But of course there could also be something said for those who oppose the Eucharist as flesh. But that ought to be saved for private discussion.
 
By no means do I say it to create tension of course. Although there ought to be some consistency and logic with this subject, no? But of course there could also be something said for those who oppose the Eucharist as flesh. But that ought to be saved for private discussion.

You are absolutely correct. Without logic there would be no consistency at all. I simply meant that I am glad you stated the obvious.
 
On the differences in beliefs within the body of Christ:

1 Corinthians 3:3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? 5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one?

This could easily be written for today's divisions:
3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am Catholic,” and another, “I am Protestant,” are you not carnal? 5 Who then are priests, and who are evangelical pastors, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one?

Even though the incidental beliefs may differ somewhat, the Foundation, Christ, is the same, and that is what saves.
 
And yet, God commanded that Moses make a bronze serpent and the Ark of the Covenant, which had graven images all over it.
Things are not as cut and dried as you would make them seem.
The Temple of Solomon had carved lions in it (among other things).

This an argument that ahs no foundation or merit .
On two grounds.

God said thou shalt NOT make any graven image of anything and man is not to bow down and worship them.
You cannot have God with two faces saying two opposing things .

Secondly that which you describe is ONLY in the Holy of Holies and seen by no one but the high priest once a year ,Therefore for whatever reason that those things are there .Man has the very minimum contact with them and they are definitely not there for the observation and veneration of Gods people.
The Brazen serpent was not venerated when it was" lifted up in the wilderness" But was indicative that sin was already judged and foreshadowed Christ . Yet later in the scriptures when people DID begin to venerate it and idolize it .God saw to it that it was destroyed .
The ARK of the covenant was hidden from view from all as it was carried and when it was in the Holy of Holies . Yet when the children of Israel; tried to use it as some sort of talisman in battle ,They lost . and the ark as well.
They are perfectly cut and dried and are not if you listen to the whispering of the devil who says "ye hath God said,,,,,,,,? and insinuates God does not really mean what he says .
For men since the fall are most prone to idolitory even after coming out of Egypt it was about a week(?) and they made an Idol and worshipped it and called it God while Moses was up the mountain.

The Pope is reported to be going to Turin and to see the shroud and thus giving credence ,encouragement to venerate that which is a lie .
For the scriptures clearly state that "his visage was marred more than any man and he was unrecognisable as a man"" His beard had been plucked form his face " His back did not have a few artistic stripes on it he was so badly whipped it looked like a ploughed field .
Intersting thought it is and interesting how it was done . But like the plaster models of Mary weeping and the like . It is a lie and those who encourage, teach and lead people to make them and to venerate them are not what they say they are nor do what they should be doing.

in Christ
gerald
 
On the differences in beliefs within the body of Christ:

1 Corinthians 3:3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? 5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one?

This could easily be written for today's divisions:
3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am Catholic,” and another, “I am Protestant,” are you not carnal? 5 Who then are priests, and who are evangelical pastors, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one?

Even though the incidental beliefs may differ somewhat, the Foundation, Christ, is the same, and that is what saves.

The foundation as you put it is one thing .But does not Paul say be careful what you build on it ?
and what of Peter who some claim the eternal church is built on. and who claim was the Rock? upon what it is built?

Does it not say in Deut who the rock is? It is God. For you cannot build an eternal church on a temporal ,man.

".....and he that doeth my words I will liken unto them who dug deep and built his house upon a rock ......"
It is absurd to say that what Jesus said to men about their house .He would not apply to HIS !

in Christ
gerald
 
You are absolutely correct. Without logic there would be no consistency at all. I simply meant that I am glad you stated the obvious.

Logic based upon a false premise no matter how logical the argument will always arrive at a wrong conclusion.

in Christ
gerald
 
This an argument that ahs no foundation or merit .
On two grounds.

God said thou shalt NOT make any graven image of anything and man is not to bow down and worship them.
You cannot have God with two faces saying two opposing things .

Reading comprehension seems to be a lost art.
That's the whole point, that the common interpretation of the commandment is flawed, because God did command the creation of graven images on several occasions.

Secondly that which you describe is ONLY in the Holy of Holies and seen by no one but the high priest once a year ,Therefore for whatever reason that those things are there .Man has the very minimum contact with them and they are definitely not there for the observation and veneration of Gods people..

Trying reading about the bronze serpent again, you are just plain wrong.
Veneration no, observation yes. The serpent was out in plain view of EVERYBODY.

The Pope is reported to be going to Turin and to see the shroud and thus giving credence ,encouragement to venerate that which is a lie .
For the scriptures clearly state that "his visage was marred more than any man and he was unrecognisable as a man"" His beard had been plucked form his face " His back did not have a few artistic stripes on it he was so badly whipped it looked like a ploughed field .
Intersting thought it is and interesting how it was done . But like the plaster models of Mary weeping and the like . It is a lie and those who encourage, teach and lead people to make them and to venerate them are not what they say they are nor do what they should be doing.

not in Christ
gerald

You really should not be critical of things of which you have no understanding.
 
I think the line is not thin…

Is there a possibility of people crossing the line? Who knows the hearts of men, am not to judge….

Now: if one thinks there is indeed a possibility, then why encourage?

"The word of God is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart "
We are meant to judge or make righteous judgement . For do you not judge between truth and error? good or evil? right or wrong?
There is a line not to be crossed.
While not related to this argument .Caine crossed it . Belthazzar crossed it . Saul crossed it . Herod crossed it and so too did Judas .and when they did there was no remedy and their end was certain .
We are coming to the time when things are going to be of such a deception and subtlety "that if it was possible even the very elect will be deceived"
We needs must be filled with the Spirit of truth who is promised "shall abide with you forever" and by HIM ".... you will know the spirit of error "
"The spiritual man judgeth all things but is judged by no one " So sayeth the scriptures . I fear that the church is far from what God would have us be .
In Christ
gerald
 
Reading comprehension seems to be a lost art.
That's the whole point, that the common interpretation of the commandment is flawed, because God did command the creation of graven images on several occasions.



Trying reading about the bronze serpent again, you are just plain wrong.
Veneration no, observation yes. The serpent was out in plain view of EVERYBODY.



You really should not be critical of things of which you have no understanding.

Jesus was held aloft in front of EVERYBODY .
"as the serpent was lifted up in the wilderness so shall the Son of man be lifted up and if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me"
The serpent was lifted up and all who looked were healed and delivered.

For the serpent as to it beign brazen speaks of judgment . Not worship or veneration.
He who knew no sin became sin that we through HIM might become the righteousness of God.
The serpent is an image of sin . It was fiery serpents that were killing everybody because of their sin of murmuring .
As they who looked in faith at Gods command to that brazen serpent lifted up all who obeyed and looked were healed .
So too then all who look on HIM who was lifted up and hung on a tree .As if fit for neither earth or heaven . Cursed. For cursed are they that hang on a tree.
You omitted of course the account in scripture and which I mentioned that when they did begin to venerate it .God saw to it that it was destroyed.

I both understand and am critical of the use of icons , statues and all the rest that are carried about and which people genuflect and venerate and are not reproved .But encouraged to do so in all parts of the world .Including India and now more and more in the UK.
It is contrary to the first and one of the two greatest of commandments upon which all the laws of God conform to.
That people justify it just shows how deceitful the heart is .

But ANYTHING that takes the place of God in the heart or first in the life of a man is idolitory

Jesus was and "is the express image of the invisible God" ALL other images speak not the truth . and blind then the mind by filling the imagination with false images so that they who indulge in such things cannot see or understand the truth and believe and be saved .

in Christ
gerald
 
You are not capable of grasping that you completely missed the point of my original post, and continue to.
 
Jesus was held aloft in front of EVERYBODY .
"as the serpent was lifted up in the wilderness so shall the Son of man be lifted up and if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me"
The serpent was lifted up and all who looked were healed and delivered.

For the serpent as to it beign brazen speaks of judgment . Not worship or veneration.
He who knew no sin became sin that we through HIM might become the righteousness of God.
The serpent is an image of sin . It was fiery serpents that were killing everybody because of their sin of murmuring .
As they who looked in faith at Gods command to that brazen serpent lifted up all who obeyed and looked were healed .
So too then all who look on HIM who was lifted up and hung on a tree .As if fit for neither earth or heaven . Cursed. For cursed are they that hang on a tree.
You omitted of course the account in scripture and which I mentioned that when they did begin to venerate it .God saw to it that it was destroyed.

I both understand and am critical of the use of icons , statues and all the rest that are carried about and which people genuflect and venerate and are not reproved .But encouraged to do so in all parts of the world .Including India and now more and more in the UK.
It is contrary to the first and one of the two greatest of commandments upon which all the laws of God conform to.
That people justify it just shows how deceitful the heart is .

But ANYTHING that takes the place of God in the heart or first in the life of a man is idolitory

Jesus was and "is the express image of the invisible God" ALL other images speak not the truth . and blind then the mind by filling the imagination with false images so that they who indulge in such things cannot see or understand the truth and believe and be saved .

in Christ
gerald

We're all on board that no one and nothing outside of God should ever be worshiped. That's not what anyone here is suggesting.
 
Today, I had the privilege of leading morning prayer for my office. I chose to teach teach the history of the Rosary prayer, why it is prayed, and how to pray it. We prayed one decade while focusing on the moment of Christ's death on the cross.

I have never instructed the Rosary to anyone, let alone a large group. It was a blessing.
 
On Icons... I've found that beautiful chapels with stained glass windows, golden crosses, gold chalices etc. are all very inspirational and in a lot of ways help us find windows into heaven. Some people get a little misconception of what an Icon is, and really, as far as I know, an Icon can be anything that is a sacred image of something Holy. The cross is an icon, so is the Bible, and even people are considered icons (made in the Image of God).

Prayer ropes I sometimes am uncertain about. I think people can be caught up in using to many prepared prayers. I think ideally one should, as a general rule, say at least one prayer from the heart for every prayer the read from a psalm or saint. However, I suppose praying even a prepared prayer is better than not praying at all. I admit I don't pray enough, so it would be awfully hypocritical of me to criticize someone who prayed either heartfelt or written prayers more than I prayed at all.

Also, on Iconography, the Holy Father has no tangible image, although Jesus was the Icon of God. The Holy Spirit is often depicted as a dove, although that is probably not His image either. Using Icons in worship is fine. None of us know what Jesus looked like because his image wasn't actually depicted until well after His death.

Replacing the (word) express IMAGE of God (living) to the ICON of God changes the living to the dead . and the truth into a lie (romans)
and Icon is a fixed and set picture of a person of whom they do not know.
The cross can be used as a superstition talisman . But that does not mean I should stop preaching it .
The Bible is not an icon either . But I do know of oen church where they put it at one end of the alter pour incense over it appear to pray over it and venerate it and at another time of the service have it at the other end of the alter doing the same and then in the middle .
But what said Jesus? Ye have by your traditions made the Word of God of none effect "
If God forbids the use of graven images how is either sacred or Holy?

In Christ
gerald
 
We're all on board that no one and nothing outside of God should ever be worshiped. That's not what anyone here is suggesting.

I was just extending what idolitory is . Yet you seem not to think or some do not think that an image or icon or statue etc that replaces the reality of the presence of God is not.
A very strange state of affairs and contradictory .
I am sure (?) that the same "anyone" would not accept the idolitory of Hinduism? yet what difference is there? None at all .

in Christ
gerald
 
I was just extending what idolitory is . Yet you seem not to think or some do not think that an image or icon or statue etc that replaces the reality of the presence of God is not.
A very strange state of affairs and contradictory .
I am sure (?) that the same "anyone" would not accept the idolitory of Hinduism? yet what difference is there? None at all .

in Christ
gerald

I agree that replacing God with a statue or an image or icon is grievous and is likely to lead to damnation. Though when we have pictures of Jesus in our homes and offices, keep a cross in our wallets, etc., the idea is not to replace Jesus with these items, but to focus on Christ himself through imagery. Just as we use music in form of worship, we aren't replacing music with worship, but using it as a form of worship.

I hope this makes better sense.
Thank you for your question and concern, Mr. Gerald.
 
This an argument that ahs no foundation or merit .
On two grounds.

God said thou shalt NOT make any graven image of anything and man is not to bow down and worship them.
You cannot have God with two faces saying two opposing things .

Secondly that which you describe is ONLY in the Holy of Holies and seen by no one but the high priest once a year ,Therefore for whatever reason that those things are there .Man has the very minimum contact with them and they are definitely not there for the observation and veneration of Gods people.
The Brazen serpent was not venerated when it was" lifted up in the wilderness" But was indicative that sin was already judged and foreshadowed Christ . Yet later in the scriptures when people DID begin to venerate it and idolize it .God saw to it that it was destroyed .
The ARK of the covenant was hidden from view from all as it was carried and when it was in the Holy of Holies . Yet when the children of Israel; tried to use it as some sort of talisman in battle ,They lost . and the ark as well.
They are perfectly cut and dried and are not if you listen to the whispering of the devil who says "ye hath God said,,,,,,,,? and insinuates God does not really mean what he says .
For men since the fall are most prone to idolitory even after coming out of Egypt it was about a week(?) and they made an Idol and worshipped it and called it God while Moses was up the mountain.

The Pope is reported to be going to Turin and to see the shroud and thus giving credence ,encouragement to venerate that which is a lie .
For the scriptures clearly state that "his visage was marred more than any man and he was unrecognisable as a man"" His beard had been plucked form his face " His back did not have a few artistic stripes on it he was so badly whipped it looked like a ploughed field .
Intersting thought it is and interesting how it was done . But like the plaster models of Mary weeping and the like . It is a lie and those who encourage, teach and lead people to make them and to venerate them are not what they say they are nor do what they should be doing.

in Christ
gerald
It is sometimes (always) most helpful to supply the scriptures you are relying on in discussing various matters.
The destruction of the bronze serpent for example can be found in:
2Ki 18:4. He removed the high places and broke the pillars and cut down the Asherah. And he broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the people of Israel had made offerings to it (it was called Nehushtan).
So you are in fact correct when you say that it was later destroyed because the people had chosen to worship it in direct violation of the commandment to not worship an image.
 
I agree that replacing God with a statue or an image or icon is grievous and is likely to lead to damnation. Though when we have pictures of Jesus in our homes and offices, keep a cross in our wallets, etc., the idea is not to replace Jesus with these items, but to focus on Christ himself through imagery. Just as we use music in form of worship, we aren't replacing music with worship, but using it as a form of worship.

I hope this makes better sense.
Thank you for your question and concern, Mr. Gerald.

I would simply have to reply as to why God said not to do it .
I would also point you to the direction of Jesus teaching on the worship of God.
God is Spirit and they that worship God will worship Him in spirit and in truth.

The true worship of God is in by and through the Spirit of God .
and it must be "in TRUTH"
No image icon or anything made by man is can or does speak the truth concerning God.
Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life ,no man cometh unto the father accept by me "
There is no other way .

and what may seem pleasing and right to man does not mean it is pleasing and right to God.

in Christ
gerald
 
I would simply have to reply as to why God said not to do it .
I would also point you to the direction of Jesus teaching on the worship of God.
God is Spirit and they that worship God will worship Him in spirit and in truth.

The true worship of God is in by and through the Spirit of God .
and it must be "in TRUTH"
No image icon or anything made by man is can or does speak the truth concerning God.
Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life ,no man cometh unto the father accept by me "
There is no other way .

and what may seem pleasing and right to man does not mean it is pleasing and right to God.

in Christ
gerald
This is why worship of images or anything at all besides God is clearly wrong.

However, if you were to "search the scriptures" ( ), you would find the opposite is true. God forbade the worship of statues, but he did not forbid the religious use of statues. Instead, he actually commanded their use in religious contexts.

People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues -- for example: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Exodus 25:18–20).
 
This is why worship of images or anything at all besides God is clearly wrong.

However, if you were to "search the scriptures" ( ), you would find the opposite is true. God forbade the worship of statues, but he did not forbid the religious use of statues. Instead, he actually commanded their use in religious contexts.

People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues -- for example: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Exodus 25:18–20).
Lysander, how were they to know what these cherubim looked like in order to follow instruction, and how might that not apply to others who would seek to make other statues and graven images and the like?
 
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