Does God Like Surprises

Voilá, your standard MO, start the name calling, and trying to put the blame on me when you can't answer the question, there is nothing rude, ugly or silly about asking you to authenticate what you preach on a Christian, Bible believing Forum.

And stop trying to categorize me, I've never read the works of Calvin or Arminius, and truthfully I'm not really interested in man's viewpoint, ...there's or yours.

So far, in this thread, you have stated that Einstein didn't know what he was talking about so that means the NASA Space Program was a hoax, because they used his work,

you believe God is a creation rather than the Creator,

"We '''''assume''''' God knows everything. Does anyone know how God was made? Does anyone know God's lifespan?"

You don't believe it was the foreordained plan of God for His Son to be crucified at the hands of men, Acts 2:23

"God limits His omniscience for us. Why is that such a surprise to any of us? Did God not do that when He went to the cross / put Himself at the mercy of humans and the devil?"

then first you say there is time in Heaven,

"You are not even trying to visualize what happens in heaven. Yes, time works differently in heaven."

then you say there isn't time in Heaven,

"There is no time in heaven...,"

There's lots more, but I thinks that's enough for people to determine what is Truth,


Did you even read 1 Jn 2:27, do you understand what it means?

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


True, born-again children of God have the Holy Spirit indwelling them, it's part of His job to teach His children the Truth, so when someone says they are speaking in the Name of the Lord and it's isn't true, ...notice the part about a lie, it's the Greek word
pseudos, just like in English it means false, pretend, pseudos comes from the Greek root word that means to utter an untruth or attempt to deceive by falsehood, so naturally, since the Holy Spirit can only speak Truth He witnesses to our spirits that what we are hearing is not from Him, ...amazing how many here don't understand that.

So, I'm not being rude, ugly or silly to ask you the question where did the Holy Spirit say in the Word that God is not omniscience, but rather following the teaching He has given us to substantiate everything we hear with the Word, Acts, 17:11, 1 The 5:21, IIsa 8:20, /p>

so, can you please provide for us a Scripture, not you opinions or conclusions to authenticate what you are saying.
You continue discussion with me in the same 'un-anointed' spirit. You are being rude. Just re-read your first post and this one. If you don't agree with rude, understand that it is the lessor of another word I am not using ;).

Your conclusions are hard to respond to because they not making sense. Example: I say this ''We '''''assume''''' God knows everything. Does anyone know how God was made? Does anyone know God's lifespan?" and then you say ''You don't believe it was the foreordained plan of God for His Son to be crucified at the hands of men, Acts 2:23''. ??????? All I am saying is that an ant can't fully grasp God. I am not saying Jesus was not predestined.....It seems you are not reading my posts.

Please just try relax and use common sense in reading the scripture. Lets focus the discussion:

Scripture says '''Whomsoever will believe''. ''Whomsoever will carry their cross''. That translates into God not knowing that justpassingthru, John, Paul and Bob will decide to carry their cross. Hence it translates into God being surprised when they do.

Scripture says ''God changed His mind''. That translates into a decision being made, new info presented and the original decision amended....which translates into God not being totally omniscient.....this being the only example of limited omniscience tells us something further...namely that it seems to only be in His dealings with us and the angels, his 'free will' creations that He limits His omniscience.

Am I saying that I am 100% certain of this? OF COURSE NOT. HOW can an ANT grasp the mind of God? BUT that IS where scripture is pointing. You have not even come close to proving me wrong. You are just raising Calvinist type predestination arguments that fail badly in proper debate.

Please try understand that I am not fighting with you / I do not want to fight with you on this. You and I both love the Lord and can be forgiven for both our beliefs.
 
We do not know what is going happen before it happens, but the Lords does, and this is why it very important to follow his guidance.
Since God knows about coming troubles, he can guide us around them. If we are disobedient then that trouble comes our way. If Adam would have listened to God things would have been a lot different today. Everything the Lord tells to do is for our benefit not his. The Lord directs the steps of the Godly, and he delights in their ways which was directed by him.
All the names written in "the Lamb's Book of Life" were written before the foundation of the world. These names were known of God before the earth was ever created, as God knows according to his foreknowledge every action of every man he will make before he makes them. We do not know what our actions will be until we do them. He gives man that choice to choose life or death, blessing or cursing.
Jesus as a man learned and grew in wisdom and stature in his physical mind, but in his divine nature which he also had, he knew all things, and he was never surprised over anything.
Even though God wants all men to be saved, yet all men will not be saved, but he knows all who will be saved, and this is why Jesus said...

Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

When do you suppose God gave to Jesus all those whom he will rise up? Is God sitting on the side lines waiting for people to come unto him so he can see who they are? Not a chance, as he already knew before the creation of the world who they were.

When you say ''All the names written in "the Lamb's Book of Life" were written before the foundation of the world. These names were known of God before the earth was ever created, as God knows according to his foreknowledge every action of every man he will make before he makes them'' you are agreeing with Calvinism. This statement by you is an assumption. A forgivable assumption as we have Rom 9. But as I already said. Does God being all powerful and all knowing translate into Him being / doing evil? I can crush an ant, but do I? I can read my wife's diary, but do I?

When you quote ''Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.'' it is clear that you agree with OSAS. I would take that scripture and add other scripture that says ''whomsoever will'' and conclude that scripture points toward ''those given to Him'' being those who from random free will come to Him. Example: I send out invitations for my wedding on a boat. I will ensure that all the people that accept do not fall off the boat.

These discussions / debates have gone on for centuries and are mostly circular as each stick to their beliefs. Neither OSAS, Arminian nor Calvinists are evil or clueless. We just have different ideas on how God's brain works :whistle:.
 
First of all, you have to be born again before you can discern the anointing in others. When a person receives Christ into their heart they become a new creation. Christ is now their new life. The word "Christ" means "anointed"
I don't know too much about Joel Osteen, but I did know about his Father, and he was a man of God, anointed of the Spirit. Jimmy Swaggart I know about but have little knowledge of his beliefs. Benny Hinn is anointed. Joyce Meyer yes, and also Franklin Graham.

I don't think we need to jump on Catholics harshly. The acid test for Christianity is being able to call Jesus, Lord. This is a revelation from the Holy Spirit. They do not need to recall the day they were 'born again'. But I am sure if they were in more type 'mortal' sin they would recall the day they bent the knee.

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
 
When you say ''All the names written in "the Lamb's Book of Life" were written before the foundation of the world. These names were known of God before the earth was ever created, as God knows according to his foreknowledge every action of every man he will make before he makes them'' you are agreeing with Calvinism. This statement by you is an assumption. A forgivable assumption as we have Rom 9. But as I already said. Does God being all powerful and all knowing translate into Him being / doing evil? I can crush an ant, but do I? I can read my wife's diary, but do I?

When you quote ''Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.'' it is clear that you agree with OSAS. I would take that scripture and add other scripture that says ''whomsoever will'' and conclude that scripture points toward ''those given to Him'' being those who from random free will come to Him. Example: I send out invitations for my wedding on a boat. I will ensure that all the people that accept do not fall off the boat.

These discussions / debates have gone on for centuries and are mostly circular as each stick to their beliefs. Neither OSAS, Arminian nor Calvinists are evil or clueless. We just have different ideas on how God's brain works :whistle:.

This is the exact reason I know nothing about "Calvinism" or any other label that men give to certain groups of people. I have never studied them and have had no interest to knowing about them. That kind a learning only contaminates ones mind and heart, and gives you a false preconceived idea of what the Bible means and in what it says. The Holy Spirit with His anointing is all that is required to be taught scriptures as only God the Father can teach. Going to a man made denomination only causes you to believe what some man said the Bible says, and not what the Spirit of God says. I have on purpose my entire Christian life stayed away from labels and doctrines of men and have concentrated only on my relationship with the Father to guide me and teach me his ways. My only label I put on myself is I belong to the body of Christ.
If I have said something that is in line with certain labels of men so be it. I did not get it from them, or the "OSAS" group, I did not get it from them either. I only believe what the Father has taught me and no more.
The Lord God is not limited to time or space, as he inhabits all of eternity. His thoughts are not subject to a time based logical order since that would require time which he is not subject to. He knows everything all at the same time. He never grows smarter, and is never learning.
How does a Spiritual being who knows all, and everything that is going to happen before it happens relate to a being who only knows, and understands time based logical thoughts? God relates to man as if he was a man so he can understand him until man is renewed in his spirit to where Christ is now his new life. Having the mind of Christ (who is God) and being filled with the Spirit of God which are the thoughts of God. Man now has the capacity to fully understand the thoughts and ways of God. Understanding how God knows all those who belong to him before he even created the heavens or the earth is very simple to understand with the mind of Christ. The carnal mind can never discover this truth as it is incapable on its own to know. When we read proverbs we discover truths that give us insight into the ways of the Lord. These give us behind the scenes glimpses into what was happening in the Spirit that could never be discovered any other way.

Pro 16:1 The plans of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.

When God spoke to Moses about destroying Israel because of their disobedience and he was going to start over with Moses by starting a new people through him, we can see after understanding proverbs 16:1 what was really going on. It makes no difference what man plans in his mind to do, it is what comes out of his mouth that is from the Lord. Those who belong to God, and are his anointed speak the very Words of God. This is extremely important to understand for the Church today. Knowing this we can see what was really going on....

Exo 32:9 And the LORD said to Moses, "I have seen this people, and behold, it is a stiff-necked people.
Exo 32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them, in order that I may make a great nation of you."
Exo 32:11 But Moses implored the LORD his God and said, "O LORD, why does your wrath burn hot against your people, whom you have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand?
Exo 32:12 Why should the Egyptians say, 'With evil intent did he bring them out, to kill them in the mountains and to consume them from the face of the earth'? Turn from your burning anger and relent from this disaster against your people.
Exo 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, your servants, to whom you swore by your own self, and said to them, 'I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have promised I will give to your offspring, and they shall inherit it forever.'"
Exo 32:14 And the LORD relented from the disaster that he had spoken of bringing on his people.

God never had any intention to destroy Israel at any time as he knew Moses would intercede on their behalf. Only, Moses did not know at that time the words coming out of his mouth were not his, but from the Lord. To the casual reader of scripture it would seem God changed his mind which he did not. He knew all along what his actions would be, and he only did what he already knew what he would do by having mercy upon Israel. This is how God related to, and revealed himself to man at that time by letting men know that God will not let sin go unnoticed without some kind of intercession and mercy on his part. All these things in the Old Testament were written for us the Church today so we might understand how an all knowing God works.
 
Read John chapter 3 and the point should be obvious. Belief is a requirement to be born again. Read without catholic lenses, I'm not bashing here but you must believe first, an infant is not capable of this as you have said.
I have read John chapter 3. I'm asking YOU to recognize that there are two sides to the issue. You might not believe the other side of it and that's fine, but baptism, as practiced by most Christians, is not about actual sin but original sin.
 
Peace, I'm not looking to argue, but the word Christian and religious are at opposite ends of the spectrum and are completely opposed to each other.
Religion is an umbrella term that contains not just Christianity but Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism and many others. If you practice Islam, you practice a religion. If you practice Christianity, you practice a religion. SOME Christians have recently tried to redefine Christianity as a relationship with God to make it seem less defined by the confines of religious practices but it is what it is.

Religion isn't a bad word. Why try to escape it?
 
Did we not already have this discussion before about a month or so ago. You are still bringing up the same old things time and time again. Remember I have already told you before, in fact today, and also the last time you brought this up before.
Those who do not know God are ever learning and NEVER able to come to the knowledge of the truth, and that is why they keep asking the same questions over, and over again because they just can not grasp the truth even after they are given the answer. You fit into that group of people.
We never resolve this issue because you usually just abandon the conversation. Maybe don't do that this time, see it through, and we can resolve our differences.

Let's look at the language you are using, "Those who do not know God." "Knowledge of truth." "Anointed." All of it is language which elevates you above other Christians. That's all. Long before your brand of Fundamentalist Christianity existed, for hundreds and hundreds of years in fact, were Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, etc. who did none of the things you invented such as believer's baptism. Infants were always baptized. Are you saying they all did it wrong? That they all went to hell? That only in the past 50 years or so did people finally start to do it "correctly"?

And for you to say that God reveals His truth only to people who believe the way you do is arrogant in the extreme, you're in fact turning your version of Christianity into an exclusive members-only club where God talks to you and ignores everyone else. I think Christianity is a bigger thing than that, and more inclusive of everyone God loves, not just the ones you hand-pick. And as long as you speak that way on a forum like this one, people - myself included - will call you out on it.
 
I have read John chapter 3. I'm asking YOU to recognize that there are two sides to the issue. You might not believe the other side of it and that's fine, but baptism, as practiced by most Christians, is not about actual sin but original sin.
Most Christians don't believe what you do, the majority doesn't make it right. I was raised Methodist, so please don't tell me what they believe. I believe what Jesus said, He said: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬ KJV). That's good enough for me.
 
Most Christians don't believe what you do, the majority doesn't make it right. I was raised Methodist, so please don't tell me what they believe. I believe what Jesus said, He said: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬ KJV). That's good enough for me.
And that is quite a different matter than baptism, isn't it?
I know Methodists who baptize infants. If your church didn't, then fine. The MAJORITY of Christians do this.
 
And that is quite a different matter than baptism, isn't it?
I know Methodists who baptize infants. If your church didn't, then fine. The MAJORITY of Christians do this.
Oh I got a public shower, but that's all it was. You asked about being born again which has nothing to do with baptism.
 
Oh I got a public shower, but that's all it was. You asked about being born again which has nothing to do with baptism.
The point is the expression being "born again" MEANS baptism if you talk to a Catholic (or one of the others I mentioned). And again, don't believe that? Fine. BUT - please respect that there is a whole other side who DOES believe that. Don't simply tell everyone who doesn't play the "born again" game that they're wrong.
 
The point is the expression being "born again" MEANS baptism if you talk to a Catholic (or one of the others I mentioned). And again, don't believe that? Fine. BUT - please respect that there is a whole other side who DOES believe that. Don't simply tell everyone who doesn't play the "born again" game that they're wrong.
It's religion versus relationship, your posts make it clear which is more important to you. And most Catholics I know don't believe what you think they should, I'll tell them they're doing it wrong according to you.
 
Well I respect most things I've seen you post here. This is one thing where I guess we just disagree. The way I was raised, baptism was about original sin and not actual sin.

The King went to be baptised. He wasn't at birth.
The others baptised in the New Testament were not given it at birth. They were fully able to make a choice for it.
Even those baptised with the Holy Spirit, were not children.

If you are not actively understanding what is going on, you're being given a bath,

And do children need to have baptism to be redeemed? NO. The King said to let the children come to him. This was a direct link to the fact that children whom have NO real way to understand sin properly get a free ride into The Kingdom.

Ignorance of the law, to The King, IS allowed.
 
You continue discussion with me in the same 'un-anointed' spirit. You are being rude. Just re-read your first post and this one. If you don't agree with rude, understand that it is the lessor of another word I am not using ;).

Your conclusions are hard to respond to because they not making sense. Example: I say this ''We '''''assume''''' God knows everything. Does anyone know how God was made? Does anyone know God's lifespan?" and then you say ''You don't believe it was the foreordained plan of God for His Son to be crucified at the hands of men, Acts 2:23''. ??????? All I am saying is that an ant can't fully grasp God. I am not saying Jesus was not predestined.....It seems you are not reading my posts.

Please just try relax and use common sense in reading the scripture. Lets focus the discussion:

Scripture says '''Whomsoever will believe''. ''Whomsoever will carry their cross''. That translates into God not knowing that justpassingthru, John, Paul and Bob will decide to carry their cross. Hence it translates into God being surprised when they do.

Scripture says ''God changed His mind''. That translates into a decision being made, new info presented and the original decision amended....which translates into God not being totally omniscient.....this being the only example of limited omniscience tells us something further...namely that it seems to only be in His dealings with us and the angels, his 'free will' creations that He limits His omniscience.

Am I saying that I am 100% certain of this? OF COURSE NOT. HOW can an ANT grasp the mind of God? BUT that IS where scripture is pointing. You have not even come close to proving me wrong. You are just raising Calvinist type predestination arguments that fail badly in proper debate.

Please try understand that I am not fighting with you / I do not want to fight with you on this. You and I both love the Lord and can be forgiven for both our beliefs.

Okay, I'll accept your not wanting to fight, ...then may I ask, "are you teachable?"

That is, do you know and understand, in your heart, that you don't know everything about God or the world we live in?

In my last post I showed you your lack of understanding of the time-space continuum we live in, which without a correct understanding we can't understand how we can be in this physical body and yet be seated in Christ in Heaven, or how Christ can be in us here on Earth when He is now a spiritual man in Heaven, or how the demonic realm can effect the human race and or born again believers.

I also showed you your double-mindedness when you talk about things you don't understand, the Word tells us we are to correct those in error, ...so I ask again, "are you teachable?"

If so, here is some brotherly advice, ...when you can't authenticate what you believe, that is a personal opinion or conclusion, with Scripture then you need to state, ...this is my personal opinion or conclusion, ...that way the Holy Spirit in His children will accept it as that and not as competition with Him. As you can see in this thread and others you have come under fire for this very reason, from me and others, if you do this you will find there is less of what you think is hostility towards you, the forum will be more friendly and will reflect the nature of our Lord in His children ...and you will not be resisting the Holy Spirit and He can do the work ordained for Him to do in your life, i. e., ...teach us all things.

Something else, you need to forget about what men have said and concentrate on learning from the Holy Spirit 1 Jn 2:27, because it's hard to unlearn something that you have already learned, ...that is wrong.

In response to God changing His mind, because Father is infinite and man is finite He wrote in the Word, in human terms, how He felt, His emotions, so that man could connect with Him, that does not diminish His divine nature in any way, ...if you believe God changed His mind then you also have to believe His is a chicken because that is how Jesus referred to Himself Psa 91:4, Luke 13:34.
 
We never resolve this issue because you usually just abandon the conversation. Maybe don't do that this time, see it through, and we can resolve our differences.

Let's look at the language you are using, "Those who do not know God." "Knowledge of truth." "Anointed." All of it is language which elevates you above other Christians. That's all. Long before your brand of Fundamentalist Christianity existed, for hundreds and hundreds of years in fact, were Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, etc. who did none of the things you invented such as believer's baptism. Infants were always baptized. Are you saying they all did it wrong? That they all went to hell? That only in the past 50 years or so did people finally start to do it "correctly"?

And for you to say that God reveals His truth only to people who believe the way you do is arrogant in the extreme, you're in fact turning your version of Christianity into an exclusive members-only club where God talks to you and ignores everyone else. I think Christianity is a bigger thing than that, and more inclusive of everyone God loves, not just the ones you hand-pick. And as long as you speak that way on a forum like this one, people - myself included - will call you out on it.

I dont care what Catholics or Methodist, Lutheran or any other man made denomination thinks or what they believe. They can not save anyone, and never will. I believe in Jesus Christ as the only name given unto man for salvation. All others are not irrelevant and mean nothing to God. He only looks at the intent and purposes of the heart, and all other works or beliefs do not provide what is necessary for one to become a son of God. Since you do not believe in the anointing of God and are offended that I said it was only the anointing that can teach one the Word of God, you know nothing of this anointing except God only gives it only to certain people that are special in his eyes. You are correct, every single truly born again Christian is anointed by the Spirit of God, and that anointing which God only gives to special people is his Church.
You do not have this "anointing" you have come and are living proof the Word of God is right in it saying, that there are those who only have a form of Godliness. They have denied the power which every Christian has, and they are always asking questions, ever learning but they are incapable to come to the knowledge of truth. These people will become known to all men, and all their folly that they profess. 2 Timothy 3: 1 - 9
 
Religion is an umbrella term that contains not just Christianity but Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism and many others. If you practice Islam, you practice a religion. If you practice Christianity, you practice a religion. SOME Christians have recently tried to redefine Christianity as a relationship with God to make it seem less defined by the confines of religious practices but it is what it is.

Religion isn't a bad word. Why try to escape it?

Could you explain that, who and when?

And also, in your personal opinion, does this sound like religion or a relationship?

And this isn't recent, goes back thousands of years.

Jesus answered and said to him, If a man loves Me, he will keep My Word. And My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. John 14:23

Or,

Therefore come out from among them and be separated, says the Lord, and do not touch the unclean thing. And I will receive you and I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty. 2 Co 6:17, 18
 
Well well.. Something we can never agree with! Not just today, but for centuries :D
You continue discussion with me in the same 'un-anointed' spirit. You are being rude. Just re-read your first post and this one. If you don't agree with rude, understand that it is the lessor of another word I am not using ;).

Your conclusions are hard to respond to because they not making sense. Example: I say this ''We '''''assume''''' God knows everything. Does anyone know how God was made? Does anyone know God's lifespan?" and then you say ''You don't believe it was the foreordained plan of God for His Son to be crucified at the hands of men, Acts 2:23''. ??????? All I am saying is that an ant can't fully grasp God. I am not saying Jesus was not predestined.....It seems you are not reading my posts.

Please just try relax and use common sense in reading the scripture. Lets focus the discussion:

Scripture says '''Whomsoever will believe''. ''Whomsoever will carry their cross''. That translates into God not knowing that justpassingthru, John, Paul and Bob will decide to carry their cross. Hence it translates into God being surprised when they do.

Scripture says ''God changed His mind''. That translates into a decision being made, new info presented and the original decision amended....which translates into God not being totally omniscient.....this being the only example of limited omniscience tells us something further...namely that it seems to only be in His dealings with us and the angels, his 'free will' creations that He limits His omniscience.

Am I saying that I am 100% certain of this? OF COURSE NOT. HOW can an ANT grasp the mind of God? BUT that IS where scripture is pointing. You have not even come close to proving me wrong. You are just raising Calvinist type predestination arguments that fail badly in proper debate.

Please try understand that I am not fighting with you / I do not want to fight with you on this. You and I both love the Lord and can be forgiven for both our beliefs.
And there so many verses in Bible which keeps on repeating God knows everything.. So we have 2 things,

God knows everything
God changed his mind

If God knew everything, why did He change his mind? How are we going to reconcile these 2 truths? I look at this way.. God ordains everything that comes to pass.. And not only that, God provides means for things to come to pass.. Every time a prophet declared judgement on Israel and Judah, there was always a call to repent.. The means was always there.. The same is the case even today.. Simple example.. Lord knows our needs even before he ask them or confess them.. At the same time, Lord tells us ask and we shall receive.. God ordains everything and also provides means for that to happen.. God is always in control.. And we will never know how He is going to pull everything together..

So I don't think God really changes his mind.. He ordains things so that always His will is accomplished.
 
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