Interesting. Your response made me think of this question: do you think God who is not surprised (in my hypothetical) can still have joy when a conversion takes place?
Does God Like Surprises
- Thread starter mattjanes
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Interesting. Your response made me think of this question: do you think God who is not surprised (in my hypothetical) can still have joy when a conversion takes place?
Yes. God delights in our prayers. Not, 'God has delighted in our prayers'.
There is no time in heaven but that does not automatically translate into there being no sequence of events. Ecc3 :15 is a powerful verse don't get me wrong. We are dumb to 'cap' God. But when we consider...the rest of scripture it points toward God limiting His omniscience (true free will for all) and a sequence of events. We have not yet reigned with Christ. Christ has not yet reigned for a 1000 years. Even the fallen angels grasped time as in a 'sequence of events'.....when they said ''why have you come to torment us before our time'.
We imagine attributes of God and lose our minds / common sense in the process. It is just like what Calvinists do with Rom 9.
That puts it into a much easier to understand perspective. Do you think that God knows who is going to hell and who is not? Based on your comment, I would say no because of the limiting of His omniscience, but I would like to know your answer.
Of course He doesn't. It is not an attribute of a good God....and we know God upholds who He is to the maximum. Best example being the cross. He proved His 'love' to us by giving His life for us John 15:13.
When we can grasp that God (Creator of all), limited all He was for us (ants) on the cross, we will grasp that He upholds ''God is good'' Psalm 136:1 to the maximum.
It is actually quite ironic. We cap God when our carnal minds think He is not surprised. We can be forgiven. But truth is, God is so good and great that He can literally do anything for us, even limit His omniscience.
This is truly good stuff!
I get exactly what you're saying now after reading this. Thank you for the explanation, brother!
@ King J, So, give us some Scripture to authenticate what you claim, that God does not have total omniscience.
Brian don't jump out of the boat to soon, it's only theory without the Word to back it up.
Brian don't jump out of the boat to soon, it's only theory without the Word to back it up.
Brian don't jump back on the boat too soon. This is the core argument of Arminians vs Calvinists.
Jacob Arminius's first of 5 articles of doctrine = 'that the divine decree of predestination is conditional, not absolute'.
If predestination is conditional, God can be surprised.
Jacob Arminius's first of 5 articles of doctrine = 'that the divine decree of predestination is conditional, not absolute'.
If predestination is conditional, God can be surprised.
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Can an ant fully grasp the mind of the Creator of all? Does anyone here have any idea on how God was created? What God's lifespan is? What I am saying is that 'inherent / limited omniscience' is where the evidence / scripture points.
Can you accept that a God knowing who will be in hell is evil for creating them for hell? Can you accept that if God cannot be surprised, free will is a joke? All I see is beating around the bush in the posts here. ""God is good'''....'''we have free will'' .... and somehow added to that ....God cannot be surprised o_O.
I agree with 'William lane Craig''. Omniscience vs free will subdivides into two questions:
1. If God foreknows the occurrence of some event E, does E happen necessarily?, and
2. If some event E is contingent, how can God foreknow E’s occurrence?
Most here seem to fall into 1. Suggesting foreknowing does not equal controlling outcome. But...how can any of you accept / judge that God is good without sounding mad?...when the stone cold truth of your belief is then that God foreknows a baby will be in hell. I am really so tired of all dodging this!
If God knows a baby will be in hell = evil Christian belief = evil God.
If God does not know baby will choose hell = good God = good Christian belief.
If we can prove that God's will is not always achieved and that God does change His mind, it proves He can be surprised.
God's will is not always achieved:
1 Tim 2:4 Who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Gen 6:6 The LORD was grieved that He had made man on the earth, and His heart was filled with pain.
Psalm 37:23 The steps of a man are established by the Lord, when he delights in his way.
John 1:12-13 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Ezekiel 18:30-32 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord God. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.
Prov 16:1 The plans of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the Lord.
James 1:13-16 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. (If it were you standing at the door, would you not be surprised if someone opened?).
Note: Our fate is clearly dependent on us. A logical person will then conclude that God is indeed surprised by our choices. Glad when we repent and sad when we don't.
God changes His mind:
Exodus 32:14 So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.
Jonah 3:10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, He had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction He had threatened.
Jer 15:6 You have rejected me," declares the LORD. "You keep on backsliding. So I will lay hands on you and destroy you; I can no longer show compassion''.
Ezekiel 24:14 'I the LORD have spoken. The time has come for me to act. I will not hold back; I will not have pity, nor will I relent. You will be judged according to your conduct and your actions, declares the Sovereign Lord.
Note: If God changes His mind = He adapts to new information = then God does not know all things.
God does not change:
Mal 3:6 'I the LORD do not change'.
Exod 3:14 'I am who I am'.
Heb 13:8 'Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever'.
Note: God is good. Him not changing who He is, does not mean He does not change His mind. Changing His mind makes Him good. It shows that He is constantly seeking a way to justify us / buy us extra time / have extra mercy. Like a kid you want to put in detention but then they simply just apologize so sincerely / do something selfless after every mistake that you just can't bring yourself to do it. The kids actions just surprise you.
Heh, heh, heh, just like always, lots of diatribe of your OPINIONS and your CONCLUSIONS, ...to quote your own words, "What I am saying."
A NOT ONE SINGLE VERSE TO AUTHENTICATE WHAT YOU ARE SPEWING!!!
Give us a verse that says God is not omniscience!
And here's some verses for ya, ....Acts 17:11, 1 Thes 5:21, Isa 8:20
And the most important,
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 1 Jn 2:27
I choose to abide in the teaching of the Holy Spirit, what you choose to do with the free will you have is your thing, if you want to believe in and follow an impotent God......, ...what other defects does your God have?
Job 38:2
There is no need to be so rude and ugly. This is also not a subject that needs a heated debate (Please re-read my first line in the post above). Perhaps when you apologize / calm down we can resume discussion.
Are you Calvinist? If you Google 'inherent omniscience' you will better see where I am coming from
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Are you Calvinist? If you Google 'inherent omniscience' you will better see where I am coming from
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For God to be "surprised" it would have to mean that God does not know all things. That is a lie and not true. Jesus is the alpha, and omega, that first and the last, the beginning and the end all at the same time. There is nothing outside of his knowing. If there was something God does not know, then he would not be God. The Lord knows every thought you will ever have, and every word that will proceed out of your mouth, even before you were born.
Psa 139:7 How can I get away from your Spirit? Where can I go to escape from you?
Psa 139:8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there. If I lie down in the deepest parts of the earth, you are also there.
Psa 139:7 How can I get away from your Spirit? Where can I go to escape from you?
Psa 139:8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there. If I lie down in the deepest parts of the earth, you are also there.
1. He knows all there is to know. He is who He is.
2. Amen. That however has nothing to do with Him limiting His omniscience to respect our free will.
3. That is an un-scriptural assumption. Please see all the scripture I gave in post #28.
4. Another assumption.
5. Another assumption.
6. Amen. We can't escape Him. That has nothing to do with Him giving us free will though / limiting His omniscience ...on our decision to serve Him or not.
No more "assumptions" , but truth.
Psa 139:2 You know when I sit down and when I get up. You know what I'm thinking even though you are far away.
Psa 139:3 You know when I go out to work and when I come back home. You know exactly how I live.
Psa 139:4 LORD, even before I speak a word, you know all about it.
Heb 4:13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
Isa 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'
1Jn 3:19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
1Jn 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
2Ti 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
When someone changes their mind it translates into them not having total omniscience.
CCW thanks for the effort here. Before I reply, just want to know if you are a Calvinist?
To tell you the truth I dont even know what a "Calvinist" is. I was not raised in any man made denominations so I have never been indoctrinated with religious concepts, or beliefs. I would have to "Google" that word to find out what it is. The word "Calvinist" does not interest me at all, and I really don't care what it means.
PeaceLikeaRiver
Inactive
I think that if you are a Christian, you are following religious concepts and beliefs.
Psalm 37:23 The LORD directs the steps of the godly. He delights in every detail of their lives.
Once we have decided to follow Him, He can predict / knows/ directs our next move. When He sees our hearts hardening He can predict / know what is coming. When a sinner does not repent He can predict / know the future of that person in that state. But He does not know if a sinner is going to repent. If He did John 3:16 would read ''For God so loved the world that when John, Mary, CCW and Justpassingthru believe in Him, they will not perish''. David was a man after God's heart Acts 13:22.
Yes, once all is said and done, He knows all that took place. As things are being done, He sees and knows what is being done. But this does not include 'pre-knowing' the decision of our hearts. He can see signs of a conversion / hardening coming. But He does not know it in advance / from birth. If God did....why put us on earth? Why not put all the good people that will be saved in heaven?
This is a very interesting verse. In the beginning it bats hard for Calvinism /predestination. But then it ends with ''I will do all that I please''.
When God came to Earth did He not limit His omnipotence? He put Himself at the mercy of humans and the devil. How can God do this when scripture says He is the alpha and Omega / The most powerful being in the universe? Surely...because it pleased Him? Being good, merciful, impartial pleases Him. So we have a God that can do whatever He wants. Can know whatever He wants. But does that translate into Him actually doing evil? 'Knowing things' that make Him evil? We need to add good + omnipotent + omniscient. God chooses to limit His omniscience. We see it in all the scriptures where He changes His mind and in how He says His will is X (all be saved) but reality is Y (not all will be saved).
This is just touching Calvinism now. Predestination / this verse simply means that we, ''''the whomsoever will'' Rev 22:17 are chosen to be in Christ. It is not saying John, Mary, CCW and Justpassingthru are chosen in Christ.
Anyone being chosen in Christ from before the foundations of the earth is subject to a condition. That condition is our will. Our will being controlled / known by God is not where scripture points.
It all depends on who the teacher is. If a man is teaching who is not "anointed" of the Spirit of God, then everything he teaches is only the doctrine, beliefs, and concepts of man, no matter how good it sounds.
PeaceLikeaRiver
Inactive
I would be interested to know how you determine who is "anointed" and who is not.