Wages Of Sin?

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In the grave there is no remembrance so it can not be the grave in which Jesus was talking about. Jesus was speaking directly to the Pharisees at this time not the large crowds when he was speaking about Lazarus. He always spoke to the Pharisees directly and held nothing back since they were suppose to already have known these things.
Abrahams bosom was a place that held the old testament saints until Jesus would come and lead them captive back to his Fathers Kingdom after his resurrection. Jesus had fellowship with Moses who died long before Jesus came to earth, on the mount of transfiguration. Did John in revelations talk to anyone who was still alive in the flesh? Who are we having fellowship with in our daily lives. Did not Jesus die? Have we not also died on the cross with Christ yet we have fellowship with others dead and alive?
You're making my point: The fact that there are so many elements in this passage that don't jive with the rest of Scripture, like people in the grave having memories, is why this has to be a symbolic passage in need of interpretation. The idea of Abraham's bosom being the holding tank for the dead is pure speculation. What IS Biblical is what Job said about where the dead will await until Jesus comes for them: "All the days of my appointed time will I wait till my change (immortal body) comes...If I wait, the GRAVE is mine house."

Why do you keep putting forth the idea that Jesus spoke only to a gathering of Pharisees? If you start at Luke 15:1 which says "then all the sinners and publicans drew near unto Him" and read all the way down to the Rich Man and Lazarus, you'll discover that the sinners and publicans have been there with the Pharisees the whole time listening to Jesus. There is not one intimation that the sinners and publicans left the Pharisees there alone with Jesus.
 
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You seem to have a lot of truth, but if you want someone to believe a lie you first have to give them a lot of truth and then mix in a little lie, and then they will follow you anywhere.

Rom 7:7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."
Rom 7:8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead.
Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

The law did its work by exposing sin in man, by producing all kinds of covetousness. The law does not protect anything, it exposes sin for what it is. Paul said he was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came sin revived and he died.
The word, "revived" means "to come back to life. To rise from the dead" Sin lies dormant within people and they don't even know they have it, until they hear the Word of God and then it springs back to life. The law does not exist to the true believer because he has died to the law through the body of Christ. The law only has dominion over those who are still alive.
If we analyze Paul's statement, we see that the subject is "SIN' and the predicate is "PRODUCED IN ME...". Another way of stating the exact same thought is "But sin produced all kinds of covetousness in me, seizing occasion through the commandment." It is SIN that active in this statement, both producing and seizing.
 
You're making my point: The fact that there are elements in this passage that don't jive with the rest of Scripture, like people in the grave having memories, is why this has to be a symbolic passage in need of interpretation. The idea of Abraham's bosom being the holding tank for the dead is pure speculation. What IS Biblical is what Job said about where the dead will await until Jesus comes for them: "All the days of my appointed time will I wait till my change (immortal body) comes...If I wait, the GRAVE is mine house."

Why do you keep putting forth the idea that Jesus spoke only to a gathering of Pharisees? If you start at Luke 15:1 which says "then all the sinners and publicans drew near unto Him" and read all the way down to the Rich Man and Lazarus, you'll discover that the sinners and publicans have been there with the Pharisees the whole time listening to Jesus. There is not one intimation that the sinners and publicans left the Pharisees there alone with Jesus.
You are completely missing the point, if there is no memory in the grave, then how could these two people be in their condition of seeing what was going on? To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Have you ever notice the personality of someone whose spirit has left their body? Not much fellowship there.
I guess you missed the part where Jesus turned his attention from the crowds to the Pharisees.

Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Luk 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.
Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

All of these passages is Jesus speaking directly to the Pharisees.
 
You are completely missing the point, if there is no memory in the grave, then how could these two people be in their condition of seeing what was going on? To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Have you ever notice the personality of someone whose spirit has left their body? Not much fellowship there.
I guess you missed the part where Jesus turned his attention from the crowds to the Pharisees.

Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Luk 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.
Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

All of these passages is Jesus speaking directly to the Pharisees.
Great question! How can these two guys be remembering stuff if there is no memory in the grave? Answer: BECAUSE IT AIN'T A REAL STORY! :) BTW, you misquoted Paul. Paul begins 2 Cor 5 with a contrast between his mortal body and the resurrection body that he expected to be raised with after he was without a body, "naked" while dead in the grave. He then said that He wanted to be absent from the body (mortal body) AND present with the Lord (in his resurrection body), his point being that he wanted to skip right on past the part about being without a body in the grave. He didn't say that "to be absent from the body IS TO BE present with the Lord" as you said. Paul knew that he would not receive his immortal, resurrection body until "a moment, in the twinkling of an eye at the last TRUMP" at which time he says "the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the TRUMP of God".
 
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If we analyze Paul's statement, we see that the subject is "SIN' and the predicate is "PRODUCED IN ME...". Another way of stating the exact same thought is "But sin produced all kinds of covetousness in me, seizing occasion through the commandment." It is SIN that active in this statement, both producing and seizing.
What is the cause of covetousness? Sin. What causes its effect to come forth? the Law.

I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."
 
Great question! How can these two guys be remembering stuff if there is no memory in the grave? Answer: BECAUSE IT AIN'T A REAL STORY! :)
Well, I guess Jesus lied, and he just wasted his words for no reason. You don't seem to be able to grasp the simplest of spiritual things, even when it is right in front of you.
 
What is the cause of covetousness? Sin. What causes its effect to come forth? the Law.

I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."
Law does not cause sinful acts to be performed. The law merely reveals what sin is, as the above verse states. Lustful desire is what brings forth sinful acts, which "when it is finished, brings forth death." We must not confuse the law's power to define what sin is with the true cause of sinful acts, which is the lustful desires of men.
 
I would never question whether Jesus was your Savior and Lord. I'm merely pointing out that the concept of "Lord" among Christians today seems to be a bit unclear, b/c of so much antinomianism. The Bible gives us a test to tell whether we know Jesus or not, which is: "Hereby do we know that we know Him, IF we keep His commandments; he that sayeth, I know Him, and keepeth no His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him.' 1 John 2:3,4

Yes, you certainly were questioning!

Jesus as Saviour and Lord is clear to me, and when I teach new believers, I emphasize Jesus as both. Please stop jumping to conclusions about people.

The commandments of Christ are written on our hearts.
 
You're making my point: The fact that there are so many elements in this passage that don't jive with the rest of Scripture, like people in the grave having memories, is why this has to be a symbolic passage in need of interpretation. The idea of Abraham's bosom being the holding tank for the dead is pure speculation. What IS Biblical is what Job said about where the dead will await until Jesus comes for them: "All the days of my appointed time will I wait till my change (immortal body) comes...If I wait, the GRAVE is mine house."

Job was speaking out of a sense of hopelessness. Put it in perspective. So, what are you trying to teach, here?

Job 17:13-16
If I look for the grave as my home
and make my bed in the darkness,
14 if I say to the pit, ‘You are my father,’
and to the worm, ‘You are my mother and sister,’
15 then where is my hope?
Can you see any hope left in me?
16 Will hope go down with me to the gates of the grave?
Will my hope rest with me in the dust?”
 
Well, I guess Jesus lied, and he just wasted his words for no reason. You don't seem to be able to grasp the simplest of spiritual things, even when it is right in front of you.
Why would you say He lied? The reason why he did not have to interpret this parable is b/c the meaning of it was so plain to all that were there! They knew who the Rich Man, the "Son of Abraham" in the parable represented - the Jewish nation. They knew that Lazarus represented the Gentile dogs, like the Gentile woman who came to Jesus saying, "Truth Lord, yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their master's table." They knew that the sumptuous table represented their privileged position among the nations, for it was they who received the covenants, the promises, the blessings, and the lively oracles. The knew that the crumbs represented the scarcity of the same among the Gentiles. They understood His warning that the tables would be turned if they continued in unbelief, and that the "kingdom of God shall be taken from them" and given to others who would receive the Comforter, the Holy Spirit. Paul said that because of their unbelief, "wrath has come upon them to the uttermost" and one atrocity after another has marked the existence of the Jewish nation. When they called for Jesus' crucifixion, crying out, "His blood be upon us and our children forever" they were indeed turning the tables on themselves. Even now, they are tormented and hated by most everyone on the earth, even their so called ally, the current U.S. administration. Matthew says that "when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard His parables, they perceived that He spoke of THEM."
 
Law does not cause sinful acts to be performed. The law merely reveals what sin is, as the above verse states. Lustful desire is what brings forth sinful acts, which "when it is finished, brings forth death." We must not confuse the law's power to define what sin is with the true cause of sinful acts, which is the lustful desires of men.
Then you don't believe scripture that says, "sin revived ans I died" What cause the sin to revive? the law!

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
 
Job was speaking out of a sense of hopelessness. Put it in perspective. So, what are you trying to teach, here?

Job 17:13-16
If I look for the grave as my home
and make my bed in the darkness,
14 if I say to the pit, ‘You are my father,’
and to the worm, ‘You are my mother and sister,’
15 then where is my hope?
Can you see any hope left in me?
16 Will hope go down with me to the gates of the grave?
Will my hope rest with me in the dust?”
Job is saying the same thing he says in chap 14 - that the dead are incapable or conscious thought and are unaware of earthly events after they are gone, like the success or failures of their children, UNLIKE traditionalists claims that Aunt Eleanor and Uncle Fred are up in heaven looking down and smiling.
 
Why would you say He lied? The reason why he did not have to interpret this parable is b/c the meaning of it was so plain to all that were there! They knew who the Rich Man, the "Son of Abraham" in the parable represented - the Jewish nation. They knew that Lazarus represented the Gentile dogs, like the Gentile woman who came to Jesus saying, "Truth Lord, yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their master's table." They knew that the sumptuous table represented their privileged position among the nations, for it was they who received the covenants, the promises, the blessings, and the lively oracles. The knew that the crumbs represented the scarcity of the same among the Gentiles. They understood His warning that the tables would be turned if they continued in unbelief, and that the "kingdom of God shall be taken from them" and given to others who would receive the Comforter, the Holy Spirit. Paul said that because of their unbelief, "wrath has come upon them to the uttermost" and one atrocity after another has marked the existence of the Jewish nation. When they called for Jesus' crucifixion, crying out, "His blood be upon us and our children forever" they were indeed turning the tables on themselves. Even now, they are tormented and hated by most everyone on the earth, even their so called ally, the current U.S. administration. Matthew says that "when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard His parables, they perceived that He spoke of THEM."
Now you are telling me it was not a parable. You are right it wasn't, it was a true event, that is why he did not have to explain it to them.
 
Then you don't believe scripture that says, "sin revived ans I died" What cause the sin to revive? the law!

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Yes, the law "revived" sin in Paul's life, in that it REVEALED his guilt and he "died", or came under conviction that he was condemned.
 
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Job is saying the same thing he says in chap 14 - that the dead are incapable or conscious thought and are unaware of earthly events after they are gone, like the success or failures of their children, UNLIKE traditionalists claims that Aunt Eleanor and Uncle Fred are up in heaven looking down and smiling.

Yes, the brains do not think any more, but the soul (mind) and the spirit of each person who has died is alive---whether in heaven with Jesus or in Hades awaiting judgment.
 
Now you are telling me it was not a parable. You are right it wasn't, it was a true event, that is why he did not have to explain it to them.
How is the world do you conclude that? I gave you the interpretation of what I, as do many others, claim is a parable! :)
 
Phoneman---you don't really understand how God made us in three parts, and how body, soul and spirit integrate.
 
Yes, the brains do not think any more, but the soul (mind) and the spirit of each person who has died is alive---whether in heaven with Jesus or in Hades awaiting judgment.
Two things are clear: One, you are trusting in Jesus alone for salvation, and I am doing the same. So, when we meet in heaven, I promise not to say "I told you so". :)
 
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