Destiny Or Free Will?

You're talking about satan now.. I'm talking about Lucifer. There is only 1 scripture mentioning Lucifer, and it is debated that the scripture is not talking about satan at all, but a corrupt king.. Since there is only 1 scripture referencing Lucifer, there is not much there to make a case that it refers to satan.

They are the same.
 
You're talking about satan now.. I'm talking about Lucifer. There is only 1 scripture mentioning Lucifer, and it is debated that the scripture is not talking about satan at all, but a corrupt king.. Since there is only 1 scripture referencing Lucifer, there is not much there to make a case that it refers to satan.

I here you and understand what you are saying. I would be glad to respond to you on what I know or believe by what I have read and learned from the Bible over the years. Maybe it will clear up any confusion.

Lucifer, Satan and the Devil are three different names for the same angel. Lucifer refers to this angel when he lived in heaven. Satan and the Devil are names for this angel after he became evil and came to our earth. The Bible uses many names for Satan.

Satan is the name that is used for Lucifer after he was thrown out of heaven. He is also called the devil. Satan is now a sinful, fallen angel. He has lived on this earth for about 6,000 years. But Satan has lived in the spirit world and most of the time he has not been visible to people on earth. Very soon the devil will leave the spirit world and will appear on earth in a visible form. Then he will be called the beast. The Bible also calls him the "anti-Christ".

The beast is the name that the Bible gives to Satan when he comes to earth visibly and claims to be God. Satan will appear on earth as a glorious, visible being. He will have the appearance of God. He will require the whole world to worship him as their god.

So what does all of that mean and why is it important. More than that, how does it fit into the Doctrine od Free Will that this thread speaks to?

Well, some say and teach that Lucifer is Satan and some others say that Lucifer is NOT Satan. Now some of you may be thinking what does it matter?

Well if one holds the viewpoint that Lucifer is NOT Satan, then it can be easily argued that Almighty God created this being known as Satan specifically for the very purpose of bringing EVIL into the world. And one could argue that even Lucifer himself was tempted by this spirit being called Satan, the devil, that was supposedly created specifically for the express purpose of bring EVIL into the world so that God could show himself to be Almighty and destroy the wicked.

However on the other hand, if one holds to the belief that Lucifer IS Satan, the devil, as I hold, then one can successfully argue that Almighty God did NOT specifically create Satan as an EVIL being to bring evil into the world, but rather that Lucifer by his OWN choice to become filled with PRIDE sinned against God and therefore Almighty God is JUST in his decision to destroy Satan and the wicked into the lake of fire on the final day of judgment.

Bingo!!!!
 
No offense beloved, but I will assume you are incorrect until you back up what you are saying with scripture.

Lets see if this helps you.........Revelation 12:7-11 says....

"And there was WAR in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the DRAGON; and the DRAGON fought and his angels,
8. And prevailed NOT; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9. And the GREAT DRAGON was cast out, that OLD SERPENT, called the Devil, and Satan, which DECEIVES the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the ACCUSER (In the Greek, this is singular which means that the Dragon, Serpent and Satan are all the same person)of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11. And they OVER CAME him ( again SINGULAR)BY the blood of the Lamb, and BY the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

I believe those verses should be adequate as Biblical proof!
 
St. Michael is somewhat unique.
His task is the defense of "all believers'. Quite a big job.
His name means "he who is like unto God", high praise indeed.

According to "tradition" (mainly Orthodox) there are nine "orders" of angels
(Virtues, Powers, Thrones, Dominions, etc) which scripture says very little about.
They number in the billions (or more).
One person asked an angel "how many there were" and the angel supposedly replied
"we number as the stars of Heaven". (which is not particularly helpful because "star of Heaven"
is a poetic reference to an angel anyway).
 
So, because I don't believe in what you believe I am confused? You are wrong, some people are destined for salvation and some others are destined for destruction. Each of these groups of people accept and desire their destiny (althogh the enemies of God would prefer to destroy God instead of going to hell). Here you have some verses which prove what I am saying: Acts 13:48, Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:11, 1 Peter 2:8.

By the way, saying that this contradicts the traditions of the church means nothing. Augustine thought that enslaving people was permissible in this world? Do you agree with that too?

Hi Sergio,

Have you considered that these passages could be understood differently?
 
Lets see if this helps you.........Revelation 12:7-11 says....

"And there was WAR in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the DRAGON; and the DRAGON fought and his angels,
8. And prevailed NOT; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9. And the GREAT DRAGON was cast out, that OLD SERPENT, called the Devil, and Satan, which DECEIVES the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the ACCUSER (In the Greek, this is singular which means that the Dragon, Serpent and Satan are all the same person)of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11. And they OVER CAME him ( again SINGULAR)BY the blood of the Lamb, and BY the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

I believe those verses should be adequate as Biblical proof!

Great scriptures.. But no that is not Biblical proof for the name Lucifer. I see you underlined "called the devil, and Satan" IF he was called Lucifer then surely this scripture would of read like this "called the devil, lucifer, and satan" But, Lucifer is not satan so this scripture actually proves my point.
 
St. Michael is somewhat unique.
His task is the defense of "all believers'. Quite a big job.
His name means "he who is like unto God", high praise indeed.

According to "tradition" (mainly Orthodox) there are nine "orders" of angels
(Virtues, Powers, Thrones, Dominions, etc) which scripture says very little about.
They number in the billions (or more).
One person asked an angel "how many there were" and the angel supposedly replied
"we number as the stars of Heaven". (which is not particularly helpful because "star of Heaven"
is a poetic reference to an angel anyway).

I am pretty sure you are meaning the archangel Micheal, and not one that the RCC dubs St. Michael.
Great scriptures.. But no that is not Biblical proof for the name Lucifer. I see you underlined "called the devil, and Satan" IF he was called Lucifer then surely this scripture would of read like this "called the devil, lucifer, and satan" But, Lucifer is not satan so this scripture actually proves my point.

Why do you want to dictate how scripture should have been worded for you to understand something? Pray about it, and seek Holy Spirit's guidance. I did, and He has shown me that Lucifer is Satan's name. Satan is not his name...it is what he is.
 
Great scriptures.. But no that is not Biblical proof for the name Lucifer. I see you underlined "called the devil, and Satan" IF he was called Lucifer then surely this scripture would of read like this "called the devil, lucifer, and satan" But, Lucifer is not satan so this scripture actually proves my point.

Well, there is nothing else I can do for you when you reject those verses. THAT IS Biblical proof. If you choose to explain them away so that your opinion remains in tact, then so be it.

I on the other hand am completely sure of what is being said and see no reason to make the Scripture say something that is not there.
 
So, because I don't believe in what you believe I am confused? You are wrong, some people are destined for salvation and some others are destined for destruction.

I agree, but the cause is what is different as I see it in the scriptures. Destined does not equal causality for me. They are destined for destruction because God foreknew that these men with a will to make choices (like satan) would never repent, even after His many attempts to touch them and offer them (like Cain) a chance to go and do it right.

Today, I just don't feel like smacking down the scripture. Strange day.

Paul did you read me explaining the Parable Jesus told?

The tree planted was not destined for destruction, but it was planted to produce fruit. The concern was it was not producing fruit, and it was taking up space. Jesus said...... Dung around it, give the tree a shot.

So, it can't be God knew the tree was destined to be thrown in the fire, until that year had passed and still no fruit.

Can't be the tree was created to fail, else it would have never been planted.

It can never be foreknowledge with God without being a causative.

Unless God uses some limited fortune telling ability at some later date. Just drops folks all over then one day...... BAM, God gets a revelation if they will make it or not...........

God puts the Spirit in man, so God would know at the time man was formed in the Womb. Making something with foreknowledge it won't work is not foreknowledge, it's causing something to fail, that you know will fail.

Like saying I know my phone will fail if I dropped it in the Toilet........ I go ahead and prove my great foreknowledge and say, see.... Phone don't work anymore. It was not foreknowledge, it was stupidity for me knowing what happens when you drop your phone in the toilet, but go ahead and drop it in anyway.

God is not stupid.

So it would have to be Calvinism...................

Can't be Calvinism............ hundreds of counter scriptures to slam that thinking dead. (though Jonah did end up where he was suppose to be despite trying to off himself)

Now the problem is I have to come up with something that makes God look Sovereign, and not a total idiot at the same time.

Or could it be man decides how God responds with God knowing the true heart and intention of man? God searches for a heart perfect toward him....... No need to do a search if God already predestined a heart or foreknew of one.

It's man proving himself faithful in a little. What Jesus says happens then?

It was at the point Abraham was about to sacrifice Issac when God said........... NOW I KNOW............. It was at that point in time, God claimed he knew something about Abraham and He knew Abraham would withhold nothing from him.

I can do the scripture thing, but that takes work.
 
Can satan do good?

John 8:44

It's one thing to be a person and bark like a dog........ The person is not really a dog, but does a good imitation.

A cat can not bark at all.

A servant was designed to serve, they expect nothing, or inquire about anything. They are a servant, and the Master needs get met first.

When a servant changes their nature to serve themselves, then they no longer become useful for which they were created for. Whatever they changed to, they are still a servant, just as a cat is a cat.
 
For salvation to have worked you would have to have been Christ when Jesus died on the cross. Jesus came bearing precious seed which was his Church which he carried in himself. The only way to be in Christ is God would have to have known before creation all those who would accept his salvation through his Son, then place them in Christ so every thing Jesus would do would be accreted to us since we were in him. We became righteous in the same way we became sinners. In Adam we became sinners in Christ we became righteous. Salvation was given to us before the world began because God knew those who would receive the Gospel by faith before the beginning of time.

2Ti 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
 
2 Ti 1:8 e not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
2 Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

verse 9 starts "Who hath saved us"....so this is talking of those who have been saved. Ok, remember this.
Next " called us", when I call someone, an answer is desired. "not according to our works", easy enough, we did not earn the call. "according to his own purpose and grace", God decides when and who to call and for what purpose. "which was given us", Now what is "which" referring to? The calling or the saving or the grace? I think grace, but does not affect what comes next. Now for "us" in the last phrase. "us" is the same "us" in the beginning of the verse, meaning believers or those saved. So, it seems clear to me that God has a plan of grace to be given in Christ Jesus before the world began. Given to whom? Those who are saved...whoever they would turn out to be. Who they would be, individually, was not determined. This is God's elect. Those who would accept Christ and believe on His name.
This is why there is so much joy in heaven when one lost sheep comes back to the Shepperd. The outcome of each individual is not known, and each have a real chance of being lost.
 
Those who Calvinist leaning, (all is destined), how do you look at Philippians 2:12 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
I'm interested on your thoughts on the "work out your own salvation" and how it fits in the predestined camp.
 
For salvation to have worked you would have to have been Christ when Jesus died on the cross. Jesus came bearing precious seed which was his Church which he carried in himself. The only way to be in Christ is God would have to have known before creation all those who would accept his salvation through his Son, then place them in Christ so every thing Jesus would do would be accreted to us since we were in him. We became righteous in the same way we became sinners. In Adam we became sinners in Christ we became righteous. Salvation was given to us before the world began because God knew those who would receive the Gospel by faith before the beginning of time.

2Ti 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


None of those scriptures or any other says God knew before creation who would want to get saved.........

God did not create man using some slot machine mechanics, every single person was fearfully and wonderfully made in his image. The idea of just randomly creating people then using his crystal ball to know who would make it or not is dumb thinking.

Zero scripture denoting when a man is formed, so any thought we were around before the World is make believe. You need a scripture to believe something. I'll give two that prove we are formed at the time of birth, not before the Word was made.

Zero scripture God had a plan before the World of knowing who would be formed latter and receive him. ZERO... Man scriptures that God says choose whom you will serve.............

The son of God, known before the foundation of the word by whom all things consist and were made for, and all things planned to be put under his feet. Had all plans laid in him...... Christ (The anointing) before the World began. The plans were in Jesus, not us, and God sets each one in the Body (After they get saved by their faith through the Grace provided) as God wills through the Head of the Church.

Now, I can list many scriptures to back all that I said........... Your coming up short, and making stuff up.

Welcome to the forum, best to check and see who is around debating before diving in.

Those who Calvinist leaning, (all is destined), how do you look at Philippians 2:12 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
I'm interested on your thoughts on the "work out your own salvation" and how it fits in the predestined camp.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
(Php 2:12-13)

Paul is talking to Timothy who is called by God with a plan as God sets each of us in the body as it pleases him. Paul already said he has obeyed even when He was not there, so the next step is to work through the plan given to him by God. Salvation is not a Greek Word for eternal life.... It means healed, put in safety, delivered.

Paul is telling Timothy to work out, stay the couse of the race. We know this because Paul used katergazomai "Work out" which means to work out, finish and accomplish the deeds before you.

If you want to use it for Calvinist or those who think God is some fortune teller, then I'll back it.
 
I thought this would be a good discussion topic. We have free will. But God is omniscient. Yet He was sorry or regretted that He ever made mankind right before the Flood in Genesis 6:5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”
Thoughts on how to reconcile God knowing ahead of time this would happen and yet regretting doing it?
I have some ideas on this and would like to see what other believers have revealed to them.

Other related scripture:
Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.
God was not sorry he made mankind, he was expressing sorrow for what the people had done to themselves.
 
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