Annihilationism

[Ken Bussell]

The

I've heard that some think Revelation has already happened. I haven't studied it enough to even have a hint at an opinion though.

The most important thing to understand about prophecy is that some prophecies have been fulfilled in the past, some are being fulfilled in the present, and some will be fulfilled in the future. Revelation is no exception. Additionally, some prophecies are all three. They have been fulfilled in the past, are being fulfilled presently, and will be fulfilled in the future.

 

[MichaelH]

I agree with you Ken.......... 100%............. please know that I don't hate you or am even mad at you. Being a Pastor myself, I am concerned that I know you need scripture to prove a spirit of man is destroyed, even if we give you the soul. There is no scripture, and no reason to continue to think the soul and spirit are destroyed.

We need more evidence to make a doctrine, and I want you on the right things, with truth.

I am harsh, that is true............ however, I deal with those on my level harshly and in love. I personally want a scripture that states God destory's the spirit of man. There are none, and I have to conceded with what Jesus said, that they shall have eternal punishment.

I believe Hell is far to long if eternal to be separated from God. Just a few years here on earth determines eternity and it don't seem right to me.. I am not the judge though, and know why I must keep this word getting out.

If I had that scripture that mans spirit is not eternal, I would agree with you, but there are none. In fact, we are like the angels, and eternal beings with or without God.

I don't hold one thing over to another thread, I hope you teach more than this...........

welcome to the forum.

 

[KingJ]

I have just never met someone that believed that. What denomination church do you attend?

I like the verses you posted. It's verses like that that make me feel like God is truly fair, in the sense of eye for an eye, rather than the traditional view.

I know God is the one who saves us. I've just seen a ton of people refuse to listen any further after being berated and told they are going to hell because they're a filthy sinner, that's all.

Well I need to qualify 'my whole church' = most + respected elders at my 'Assemblies of God church'.

Lets just be clear that God is 'eye for an eye' on those that go to hell. That is what they want. That is not God's desire for them.

Another verse that hit home for me is Psalm 136:26 Give thanks to the God of heaven. His love endures forever. (note there is no clause saying it ends when anyone goes to hell. They could be you and me who once served Him and shipwrecked our salvation. They is definitely the devil, the once covering cherub).

This is the reason they are still kept alive. Perhaps the strongest argument against annihilation.

Ever think about the effort needed by God to 'create' a hell? I know that sounds trivial but when you understand God it is not. God is good. God sweat blood in anticipation of sin coming upon Him. Now our good God needs to apply Himself to creating a home for the evil? Is that not loving them?

 

[dgsinclair]

How does

Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

fit your requirement?
What part of us is in the image of God?...just asking.

Man is mortal after the fall and expulsion...

And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the groundfrom which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Edencherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life. - gen. 3:22-24​

 

[KingJ]

Sorry, I'll try to be clearer.

1. First, surely people living forever without God would suffer. Even the life we live now, tainted by sin as it is, would be horrible to live forever (in my opinion anyway).

2. People are not naturally immortal- eternal life is a gift to those who believe (try searching immortality at www.biblegateway.com in any translation and you'll see it always refers to the righteous, and is something we should seek. The idea of the immortality of the soul comes from Plato, not the Bible.

3. For the record, no, I don't think free will justifies eternal suffering. But I do believe that living forever without God would be eternal suffering (and as I said the only way free will would be an argument for remaining in that state would be if we were naturally immortal).

1. Yes. Wolves living with wolves is harsh for wolves. But harsher for lambs and God will certainly not allow the two to mix. Nor will He eternally torture the wolves. He will / can only make a home for them to be who they have chosen to be.

2. We will eternally disagree. Jesus says eternal punishment. The Greek says eternal punishment. Lateral thought off free will and Gods love enduring forever agrees with me and not with annihilation.

3. Free will requires us to be immortal. If the one choice was eternal life and the other annihilation / cease to exist... how in the universe is that free will?

 

[KingJ]

Man is mortal after the fall and expulsion...

And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the groundfrom which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Edencherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life. - gen. 3:22-24​

In the spiritual realm life is to live with God and death without Him.

 

[KingJ]

Man is mortal after the fall and expulsion...

And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the groundfrom which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Edencherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life. - gen. 3:22-24​

1. Adam was never immortal in the flesh. Before or after the fall. Long life is not immortal. Flesh = flesh = dust to dust.
2. Spirit = Spirit = immortal. Bible talks of eternal life and eternal punishment. Did you intentionally omit the 'eternal punishment' verse by Jesus?

 

[calvin]

Man is mortal after the fall and expulsion...

And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the groundfrom which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Edencherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life. - gen. 3:22-24​

Man was mortal before the fall and expulsion. But that is not germane to the post from Andrew, the same one I referred to.
Was there a reason behind posting a passage that has no relevance to the passage I offered to Andrew?

 

[Andrew Manuel]

1. Yes. Wolves living with wolves is harsh for wolves. But harsher for lambs and God will certainly not allow the two to mix. Nor will He eternally torture the wolves. He will / can only make a home for them to be who they have chosen to be.

2. We will eternally disagree. Jesus says eternal punishment. The Greek says eternal punishment. Lateral thought off free will and Gods love enduring forever agrees with me and not with annihilation.

3. Free will requires us to be immortal. If the one choice was eternal life and the other annihilation / cease to exist... how in the universe is that free will?

1. That just doesn't seem to fit with the biblical view of Hell as a lake of fire/eternal fire. It seems to me that either it consumes or torments- even if symbolic it is an active punishment. If it only lasts a time and leads to banishment, surely the part you actually consider to be punishment is not eternal (to see it as the combination of both, given its infinite duration, would not seem to me to get past the idea of disproportionality, and would also mean sin is never completely defeated [in the sense of eliminated anyway], just put away in a dark corner somewhere. If sin is our greatest enemy how would it be loving for God to have people live eternally with it?)

2 and 3. If free will truly lasts forever surely the people in this situation would either choose to go to heaven after a time (universalism) or if that were not a possibility choose suicide (annihilationism). Not allowing those two options is just as much a sleight on free will. I would also suggest that God's love can last forever without all the objects of His love lasting forever (and maybe even becomes more coherent if the objects of his wrath are detined to be no longer... maybe!)

 

[Andrew Manuel]

1. Adam was never immortal in the flesh. Before or after the fall. Long life is not immortal. Flesh = flesh = dust to dust.
2. Spirit = Spirit = immortal. Bible talks of eternal life and eternal punishment. Did you intentionally omit the 'eternal punishment' verse by Jesus?

It's actually getting quite tiring to constantly have to repeat that punishment with eternal consequences IS eternal punishment, and that this use of the word eternal DOES have precedent in the Bible ('eternal redemption', 'eternal judgement' etc.)

Also see #495 which shows that 'death' cannot be something which is consciously experienced forever (otherwise it would never be defeated!)

 

[Andrew Manuel]

Man was mortal before the fall and expulsion. But that is not germane to the post from Andrew, the same one I referred to.
Was there a reason behind posting a passage that has no relevance to the passage I offered to Andrew?

The passage you offered said we are made in the image of God. So does that mean we're immortal? Maybe, if there weren't other passages (search 'immortality' in an online Bible) which showed immortality was only for the saved, we could argue that. But as it happened we can't argue that any more than we can argue that man being made in God's image is omnipotent, omnipresent, or any of the many other qualities of God.

"He [God] who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen." (1 Timothy 6:15-16)

 

[Andrew Manuel]

a

 

[Butch5]

What scripture was that where the wicked fully die in the lake of fire? Sorry, I must have missed it.

Also note the body without the spirit dies............ Lots of scripture that talk about the death of the wicked, none denote any place but on earth.

Zero scripture anywhere that a spirit can be killed, destroyed, or perish. The soul being something we work on here while on earth with the engrafted Word and the belief that it's possible to save our soul with the Word even after being born again does not indicate anything concerning our spirit man.

Paul was concerned about a man's spirit who he turned over to Satan.

It's our spirit that gets born again, not the soul, and Jesus and Stephen both commanded their spirit to God, no care about their soul.

Jesus went to hell and preached to the "spirits" in Hell, not the souls (Not saying the soul was not there also, but not mentioned but mentioned that Jesus soul would not be left in hell)

I think I have been more than kind to Ken and understanding, I have addressed all his scriptures and He has yet to explain his fumbling at some things in His video, and yet to mention anywhere what happens to the spirit of man.

If your going to make a doctrine to teach others, then It needs to be 100% solid.
That is all I am asking, for scriptures that are not there because the doctrine is not there.



I am actually getting tired of the thread. I can't get Ken to explain what I have asked him to and most here can't go scripture to scripture with me, and some of the ones that can agree with me....... I don't really see the point in continuing.

Ill

What scripture was that where the wicked fully die in the lake of fire? Sorry, I must have missed it.

Also note the body without the spirit dies............ Lots of scripture that talk about the death of the wicked, none denote any place but on earth.

Zero scripture anywhere that a spirit can be killed, destroyed, or perish. The soul being something we work on here while on earth with the engrafted Word and the belief that it's possible to save our soul with the Word even after being born again does not indicate anything concerning our spirit man.

Paul was concerned about a man's spirit who he turned over to Satan.

It's our spirit that gets born again, not the soul, and Jesus and Stephen both commanded their spirit to God, no care about their soul.

Jesus went to hell and preached to the "spirits" in Hell, not the souls (Not saying the soul was not there also, but not mentioned but mentioned that Jesus soul would not be left in hell)

I think I have been more than kind to Ken and understanding, I have addressed all his scriptures and He has yet to explain his fumbling at some things in His video, and yet to mention anywhere what happens to the spirit of man.

If your going to make a doctrine to teach others, then It needs to be 100% solid.
That is all I am asking, for scriptures that are not there because the doctrine is not there.



I am actually getting tired of the thread. I can't get Ken to explain what I have asked him to and most here can't go scripture to scripture with me, and some of the ones that can agree with me....... I don't really see the point in continuing.

I'll go to the Scriptures with you.

 

[Andrew Manuel]

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
(1Co 15:46-49)

I think you've just given the key to understanding this confusion with the spirit. The second man here is the one who is born again of the spirit, ie. a believer:

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. (John 3:5)

This says nothing about unbelievers.

Where are the verses which show non-believers' spirits are tormented forever? Why take this as a default position.

All I've seen is speculation on how the spirit going back to God goes back for judgement (which seems to go against the bodily ressurections of Daniel 12 and Rev 20 for judgement). As I said before, I believe that the point of Ecclesiastes in saying this is to says that they are destined to become what they once were, before their creation, ie. nothing. That certainly fits with the immediate context, as in the verse directly after it says "Vanity of vanities (...) all is vanity."

 

[calvin]

The passage you offered said we are made in the image of God. So does that mean we're immortal? Maybe, if there weren't other passages (search 'immortality' in an online Bible) which showed immortality was only for the saved, we could argue that. But as it happened we can't argue that any more than we can argue that man being made in God's image is omnipotent, omnipresent, or any of the many other qualities of God.

"He [God] who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen." (1 Timothy 6:15-16)

I offered that passage, and I asked a question. If you can't answer, that is OK, just say so.
I gather you don't see that passage as a reasonable answer to your challenge, (which was not to me anyway) that too is OK.

 

[Andrew Manuel]

I offered that passage, and I asked a question. If you can't answer, that is OK, just say so.
I gather you don't see that passage as a reasonable answer to your challenge, (which was not to me anyway) that too is OK.

To the question 'what part of us is the image of God?' No, I don't have an answer.

 

[calvin]

The passage you offered said we are made in the image of God. So does that mean we're immortal? Maybe, if there weren't other passages (search 'immortality' in an online Bible) which showed immortality was only for the saved, we could argue that. But as it happened we can't argue that any more than we can argue that man being made in God's image is omnipotent, omnipresent, or any of the many other qualities of God.

"He [God] who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen." (1 Timothy 6:15-16)

In an effort to be a bit more accommodating; An image resembles an actual reality, but it is never the same or of the same substance as the actual reality.
In telling us we were made in the image of God, we are not told we are God. But we do resemble Him in one or more features or aspects....yes?
If so, what might some of these resemblances be and how might they relate to the subject of.... how well is the soul of man able to endure endless existence removed from the presence or at least the beneficent influence of God.

 

[calvin]

To the question 'what part of us is the image of God?' No, I don't have an answer.

Good! Me neither

 

[calvin]

All this being said, we should not be too quick to down any body's thinking if we can't even grasp the basics ourselves..

 

[MichaelH]

Michael, did you put me on your ignore list?

I never put anyone on my ignore list........ and I never give a dislike, or disagree or any other remark but positive ones. Never had, and never will as those remarks stay and one thread about one thing means nothing.

I think you've just given the key to understanding this confusion with the spirit. The second man here is the one who is born again of the spirit, ie. a believer:

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. (John 3:5)

This says nothing about unbelievers.

Where are the verses which show non-believers' spirits are tormented forever? Why take this as a default position.

All I've seen is speculation on how the spirit going back to God goes back for judgement (which seems to go against the bodily ressurections of Daniel 12 and Rev 20 for judgement). As I said before, I believe that the point of Ecclesiastes in saying this is to says that they are destined to become what they once were, before their creation, ie. nothing. That certainly fits with the immediate context, as in the verse directly after it says "Vanity of vanities (...) all is vanity."

That it does, nothing about the unbeliever.......

However, any body without the spirit is dead...... (James)
All men are created in the image of God, like God and God is a spirit...... (James)

To think a unsaved person is not a spirit being is not scriptural.

I need that scripture where the Soul is definitly destroyed in the Lake of fire, or Hades. Not in some valley Jesus made a reference to as to make a point about the real Hades, and not that God is just able to do it, as there are many scriptures that say God can, and nothing is to hard for him.

I just need those scriptures of a spirit and soul getting destroyed in Hades, Lake of fire.

Without that, I can't with good conscience tell folks that there is no eternal punishment when Jesus said there is.

All scripture has to be true, and not one contradicts another scriptures. There are so many doctrines to remove hell, and that should tell us something of it's own.

You end up with many doctrines because nobody can make a solid case for it and come at many different angles to prove it.

Just like the Trinity Doctrine, How many versions of that are there? Oneness, symbolism, modelism, and Trinity.