Auschwitz: God On Trial

Major, Major: I will not get into civil authority issues on this thread: if you want to think the UN and the British Parliament are sacrosanct to God dividing the Red Sea or sending manna from heaven, that's your thing, not mine.


You stated .........
"By politics not by God's actions. Unless you think God orchestrates the House of Lords and the UN like puppets."

How does yur responce correspond to the Scriptures? I am not advocating civil authority, I simply posted the Scriptures which say God puts up kings and tears down kings.

Are you saying that the Scriptures are not valid in this issue.???
 
Ive read the book The Holocaust:The jewish tragedy 3x by Martin Gilbert. A grusome account on the events that happen to the jews during world war 2 and the nazi rein of the extermination of the jews by utter cruelty showing no mercy to its victims. i use tosay where was god in all this? the jews are Gods chosen people yet he is letting them be destroyed by nazis? Sent to the gas ovens. one gruesome part i read from this book at a prison - Block 5 ( jump to page 642 if you plan on buying this book) is about how the SS had decided that all 7 jews at this prison were told they must all die by christmas day. They must voluntare, if they dont then the prison guard who enjoyed killing jews would chose one per day and with his pickaxe smashing the victims skull in till dead the last 2 died on Christmas night a father and son who committed suicide instead of letting this nazi thug beat them to death so they both touched the electric fence dying together. Meanwhile that night a Christmas carol was playing. This was told by a P.O.W British pilot who witnesses what happen and only survived cause he wasn't jewish.

And where two SS guards enjoyed stomping on Jewish pregnant mothers till the unborn baby popped out, laughing while the woman died in agony. Or the hanging of Jewish children with piano wire while the mothers had to watch, usually takes 20min for them to die by strangulation again while the SS taunted the mothers "Where is your god now".
The grand father whos job was to throw the already dead gassed jews into the ovens two at a time. one day he came across two jewish children. His grand children. He struggled to do what he had to do holding back his tears. So nartually i would say while reading this book & very upset and confused "Where was God in all this?!? He failed to save his Chosen people! He saved them from the Egyptians why not with the Nazis! Why did they had to suffer? ( yeah a bit of a fool huh but anyone would after reading this book it will chill you to the bone to be honest)

I dare any one who might have doubts if the holocaust was real or a hoax to read this book, Read it anyway if you believe the gassing of the jews did happen. You will be chillled to the bone. I still am when i re read it.

History must not repeat itself. Next time it might not be the Jews that will be gassed it could be you or me or someone you love by a people who hate us. I have read too,Some say the Jews got what was coming to them they crucified Jesus, but thats a pretty poor cowardly reason. Maybe they did have it coming who knows? Maybe the world power America and its allies with plenty of pride have it coming too. We just dont know whats round the corner. Jesus said to the father while dying on the cross. "Father forgive them for they do not know what they're doing". We christians should take heed at the warnings: "And you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved". ( eg we are seen as infidels by some in the name of Muhammad christians need to be taken out.)

Jesus also said Watch.

Anyway today i came across this where now when i think about it i could of just asked here and probably would of got a good enough aswer.:)

http://globalizati.wordpress.com/2006/12/23/auschwitz-god-on-trial/

These same struggles have been a prominent thread in theology throughout its history. The ‘problem of evil’ is called theodicy. How do we reconcile the existence of suffering and of evil (whether or not they are synonymous) with the existence of God? How can there be wars, terrorism or plagues such as AIDS and an all-loving, all-powerful God? If God allows free will, or created a universe in which Satan exists, does not that suffering in some way emanate from God? From that beacon of respectability.

While I haven’t read Elie Wiesel’s The Trial of God, I have read his Night. I found Night to be one of the most ghastly things I’ve ever read, due to its simple descriptions and basis in the reality of the Holocaust. In Night, Elie Wiesel describes the hanging of a child in Auschwitz. In A History of God, Karen Armstrong describes the episode thus:
It took the child half an hour to die, while the prisoners were forced to look him in the face. The same man asked again: “Where is God now?” And Wiesel heard a voice within him make this answer: “Where is He? Here He is—He is hanging here on this gallows.”

Dostoevsky had said that the death of a single child could make God unacceptable, but even he, no stranger to inhumanity, had not imagine the death of a child in such circumstances.
G'day there survivor,
I'm coming in a bit late......maybe.
To my way of thinking, people who know their God do not quibble over racial classifications.
The nation of Israel exists/existed because the Lord chose to have a people set aside from the rest of humanity. Did these people always remain faithful to their calling...No! So what?
Do Christians today always remain faithful to their calling?
Does that prevent the Lord from loving other people, does that prevent the Lord from blessing other people? No!
I think if some had their way, there would indeed be discrimination amongst the nations by the Lord.
Y'see what a lot of people miss is that in calling out Israel to be His vanguard, the Lord does not thereby despise or reject everyone else.

It doesn't matter whether there is identifiable prophesy concerning the Holocaust or not.
In a sense, it doesn't matter whether a person would condone the Lord allowing or even initiating these horrors, of which the Nazi persecution of the Jews was only one episode.
The fact is they all pale into insignificance compared to what we all collectively and individually did to Jesus.

Jer 25:9 behold, I will send for all the tribes of the north, declares the LORD, and for Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants, and against all these surrounding nations. I will devote them to destruction, and make them a horror, a hissing, and an everlasting desolation.
Jer 25:10 Moreover, I will banish from them the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the grinding of the millstones and the light of the lamp.
Jer 25:11 This whole land shall become a ruin and a waste, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.
Jer 25:12 Then after seventy years are completed, I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity, declares the LORD, making the land an everlasting waste.
Jer 25:13 I will bring upon that land all the words that I have uttered against it, everything written in this book, which Jeremiah prophesied against all the nations.
Jer 25:14 For many nations and great kings shall make slaves even of them, and I will recompense them according to their deeds and the work of their hands."
Does this speak to the Holocaust?.......Maybe yes, maybe no. That is not necessarily germane to your OP.

What is germane is the truth of Scripture when it instructs us that the Lord is in control. He does send calamity on those in rebellion to His ways, not just the Jewish people, but to all who oppose Him.
We should resist the Devil's temptation to call into question the Lord's trustworthiness....His righteousness. Satan found that a very useful tool in the garden of Eden, so much so that he has used it as often as he can.
It is inconceivable that any naming the name of Christ Jesus would presume to sit in judgment of the most High God.
 
Rusty, I think you need to go take a cold shower. Most of my post addressed some articles that had been linked to in the opening post. In any event my post was in reply to the opening post and nothing else in particular. If you are having comprehension issues, I would respect you more if you simply asked for clarification rather than wading in with a pugilistic attitude.
Am I being unfair to you? Did you take my comment on prophesy and the holocaust, cut it short and draw an unwarranted inference from it? Go take a cold shower and rethink your attitude
 
G'day there survivor,
I'm coming in a bit late......maybe.
To my way of thinking, people who know their God do not quibble over racial classifications.
The nation of Israel exists/existed because the Lord chose to have a people set aside from the rest of humanity. Did these people always remain faithful to their calling...No! So what?
Do Christians today always remain faithful to their calling?
Does that prevent the Lord from loving other people, does that prevent the Lord from blessing other people? No!
I think if some had their way, there would indeed be discrimination amongst the nations by the Lord.
Y'see what a lot of people miss is that in calling out Israel to be His vanguard, the Lord does not thereby despise or reject everyone else.

It doesn't matter whether there is identifiable prophesy concerning the Holocaust or not.
In a sense, it doesn't matter whether a person would condone the Lord allowing or even initiating these horrors, of which the Nazi persecution of the Jews was only one episode.
The fact is they all pale into insignificance compared to what we all collectively and individually did to Jesus.

Jer 25:9 behold, I will send for all the tribes of the north, declares the LORD, and for Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants, and against all these surrounding nations. I will devote them to destruction, and make them a horror, a hissing, and an everlasting desolation.
Jer 25:10 Moreover, I will banish from them the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the grinding of the millstones and the light of the lamp.
Jer 25:11 This whole land shall become a ruin and a waste, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.
Jer 25:12 Then after seventy years are completed, I will punish the king of Babylon and that n ation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity, declares the LORD, making the land an everlasting waste.
Jer 25:13 I will bring upon that land all the words that I have uttered against it, everything written in this book, which Jeremiah prophesied against all the nations.
Jer 25:14 For many nations and great kings shall make slaves even of them, and I will recompense them according to their deeds and the work of their hands."
Does this speak to the Holocaust?.......Maybe yes, maybe no. That is not necessarily germane to your OP.

What is germane is the truth of Scripture when it instructs us that the Lord is in control. He does send calamity on those in rebellion to His ways, not just the Jewish people, but to all who oppose Him.
We should resist the Devil's temptation to call into question the Lord's trustworthiness....His righteousness. Satan found that a very useful tool in the garden of Eden, so much so that he has used it as often as he can.
It is inconceivable that any naming the name of Christ Jesus would presume to sit in judgment of the most High God.
Gday there Calvin, point taken. firstly the OP was more aimed at how the nazis treated the jews and yes occassionally i have asked myself that question when reading the book. Probaby very unwise of me.

Maybe your right maybe i dont know God at all.:confused: Who knows. Just like in the book of ECCLESIASTES 'Wisdom is Meaningless'
And at times life is too. Everything is meaningless well thats my take on life atm.

On another note you be surprised how many young people have never heard of hitler or dont even care! especially when it comes to girls, boys do thanks to war games an a full on history of what happeen during WW2.. I and my son were talking about WW2 and Adolf Hitler when his girl friend mention who is hitler?o_OAdolf Hitler you never heard of the gas ovens?!!. Nope. Oh My Gawd! She thought theNazis were a religeon:giggle: . Nearly right more an evil cult more like it.
 
Nazis aren't a religion? :D

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


-Jesus the Christ-
 
Sigh.....What did my post quote Rusty.. Ohhh the opening bit that said "I_Survived_The_Eighties said: "I mean.
Isn't it reasonable that the material contained within that quote would form the basis of what was to follow?
Anyway I done with this thread....go take a cold shower and clear your head
 
True...the Madman of Austria's whole religious agenda was all mixed up with Blavatsky/Thule Society and his using German churchmen for politcal stooges...But I think it is unwise to say he was 100% of any religious persuasion....

No he was one of those 'intelligent crazies'....what's that word again? Oh yeah psychopath.... or was it sociopath?
 
Gday there Calvin, point taken. firstly the OP was more aimed at how the nazis treated the jews and yes occassionally i have asked myself that question when reading the book. Probaby very unwise of me.

Maybe your right maybe i dont know God at all.:confused: Who knows. Just like in the book of ECCLESIASTES 'Wisdom is Meaningless'
And at times life is too. Everything is meaningless well thats my take on life atm.

On another note you be surprised how many young people have never heard of hitler or dont even care! especially when it comes to girls, boys do thanks to war games an a full on history of what happeen during WW2.. I and my son were talking about WW2 and Adolf Hitler when his girl friend mention who is hitler?o_OAdolf Hitler you never heard of the gas ovens?!!. Nope. Oh My Gawd! She thought theNazis were a religeon:giggle: . Nearly right more an evil cult more like it.
Ohh Boy! I'm trying to get out of Auschwitz!
I was not having a go at you, though I can see how you might take it that way. I leave the personal aggression to others.
I was reacting to those articles and other criticisms I have read.
 
Who knows...I promise: he never submitted to any psychologists couch.

But....and yeah...this point is germane: Was his government God's doing? Was God in control here? Should Christians in Europe "submitted themselves to their "head" of state?

I don't know...but the majority of the sheep in the USA still trust the gubment....funny how history repeats>>>>almost just like SIN!
 
Yes... the blind lead the blind...don't they? And I think you know I am in agreement with you about the Christians in Nazi Germany...

I don't wanna stir the pot of America, mate: lets focus on a very well documented history: Nazism and the genocides it produced.

From my studies the majority of church-going Christians eventually fell in line with Hitlerism (notable acceptations not withstanding...and they were liquidated) Many saw Christian teachings in his ideas.
 
What concerns me, if one does the minimum research on pre-war German Christianity, these were Evangelical folks, Catholic folks, Protestant folks who were swept along with little resistance by a clearly (in hindsight) evil political lunacy. Who is to say how many born again Christians fell for this most horrifying of all agendas?

Who is to say as End-times elements crowd in on our cozy little church life that we do not get sucked in like those German Christians?

Too late.... (in my opinion)
 
Please read my posts, please: I will not join you in a debate on God and civil authority or politics.
I also do not take as a given any one is a Bible authority, so you're saying"I'm only quoting Scripture" is a straw-man argument, Everyone on this forum quotes Scripture. It's how it's understood that matters.

Please try to relax.

No sweat from me Rusty.

There is no debate to be had. Either God said it and meant it or He didn't. That my friend is the end of the debate.

Quoteing Scripture makes NO ONE an authority whatsoever. It is simply a basis for truth from the mouth of God.
We eith believe it or reject it.
 
No....um... the kind you are doing yet again above.

The Incarnation is a thread I might bring up sometime...What's your hurry?

Why not show us where these "spiritualizations and symbolizings " are on this thread that you claim I have used?

Perhaps you don't know what a logical fallacy actually is.

No Rusty you did not sybolize Scriptures on this thread that I am aware of, BUT you did on another thread on the Revelation. You in fact refused to answer my question on whether the 144,ooo were literal or a symbol. That is what I was referring to. You said you would answer on another thread but so far you haven't.
 
I don't see God as a slow "drawer", Major when it comes to miracles. Although I have heard faith-healers make that statement on occasion.
I see no other biblical miracles when it include masses of peoples taking over 70 year to actually occur.
Jericho, the Red Sea, the destruction of the Flood, all the OT miracles I can think of were not done in "slo-mo."

Rusty, you are I am sure a wonderful Christian man and I love you. However I must say that your opinions are shall I say differant and you tend to be rather unique in your understanding of Scripture.

The idea that God has to do something quickly in order for it to be a miracle is shall I say....challenging to grasp.

The fact is, I have never ever heard anyone say such a thing and the Bible examples would be to many to post on this site.

I am going to agree with calvin......I have to move away from this thread and leave it all to you and others who enjoy this kind of communication.
 
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