Regeneration Precedes Faith?

There are some Christians who teach that logically a person is regenerated before he believes.

However, the following verse demonstrates the 'life" comes as a result of believing:

"Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

Since "life" comes as a result of believing then it is impossible that regeneration precedes faith.
 
Hi Rusty,

That teaching is also known as "Monergistic Regeneration."

R.C. Sproul, one of the leading Calvinists in the world today, defines that concept in the following way: "When the term 'monergism' is linked with the word 'regeneration' the phrase describes an action by which God the Holy Spirit works on a human being without that person's assistance or cooperation" [emphasis added](R.C. Sproul, What is Reformed Theology? [Grand Rapids: Baker Books], 184).

Therefore, by this reasoning, since a person plays no part in his regeneration the Calvinists teach that "regeneration precedes faith." They say that God regenerates only those chosen before the foundation of the world. Therefore only those chosen have the ability to believe the gospel and be saved.
 
There are some Christians who teach that logically a person is regenerated before he believes.
Hi Jerry. I have to correct your first line. There are NO Christians that teach this ;). Anyone who believes God shows favouritsim has more in common with satanism then Christianity.
 
Hi Jerry. I have to correct your first line. There are NO Christians that teach this ;). Anyone who believes God shows favouritsim has more in common with satanism then Christianity.

KingJ,

There are many Christians who teach this. Only God knows who truly believes the gospel so I am not willing to argue that Calvinists are not Christians.
 
KingJ,

There are many Christians who teach this. Only God knows who truly believes the gospel so I am not willing to argue that Calvinists are not Christians.
I am not going to relent, Jerry ;). The issue for Calvinists to deal with (not me) is there understanding of the extent to which they see God showing preference for some. Teaching or implying that God specially selects some for heaven / no true free-will is a clear sign of satan behind their belief. True free will = Christianity 101!!!! Any opposite or blur on a core Christian truth = satanism 101.

The subject of free will is simply not in the same league as rapture / head coverings / baptisms / resurrections or even number of wives allowed. It is a disagreement at the highest level! Up there with those who add and take away from scripture. How a mature '''Christian''' can see God as a respecter of persons is beyond me.
 
I wouldn't say "satanism" as such: they do not see God favoring anyone...at least the stuff I have read (long long ago) of theirs.
:) Yes, I have not got the motivation to go study 'satanism' the religion. Rather implying a belief driven by satan = satansim.
 
The issue for Calvinists to deal with (not me) is there understanding of the extent to which they see God showing preference for some.

KingJ, a person is not saved because of their belief in regard to whether or not God shows preference for some. Instead, salvation comes unto "all" who believes the Bible.

Besides, the Calvinists say that they have support from the Bible which teaches that God does indeed show preference for some:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).

Today one of the chief spokesmen for Calvinism is Dr. R.C. Sproul and he says the following:

" From all eternity God decided to save some members of the human race and to let the rest of the human race perish. God made a choice--he chose some individuals to be saved unto everlasting blessedness in heaven, and he chose others to pass over, allowing them to suffer the consequences of their sins, eternal punishment in hell" [emphasis mine] (R.C. Sproul, What is Reformed Theology?[Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 2005], 141).

How would you answer Ephesians 1:4 and Sproul's assertions which he thinks is supported by verses like that one?
 
Maybe the term "unchristian" or "ungodly" would be more accurate, KingJ.
How is unGodly and unChristian not = satanism?

Christians following an 'unGodly' belief is the same as Christians following a 'satanic' belief. Not sure why you posting the need to differentiate?
 
Just plain human error is not always satanism. Unless one thinks all human error is demon driven, which dumps "free will" just as "individual predestination" does.
So, well educated people supporting oppression of a race are just in human error? Favoritism is not simply human error. It is demonic! It is satanic! As I said in post #12 it is an extremity. Nobody can call themself a Christian and say God shows favoritism (unless you are a very young and naive Christian). It reminds me of the churches in my country who demonized black people purely because of colour. That is more inline with satanism. Not Christian error, don't you think?

Satanism is a belief system, a stylized "religion".
In post#13 I explain my reasoning.
 
KingJ, a person is not saved because of their belief in regard to whether or not God shows preference for some. Instead, salvation comes unto "all" who believes the Bible.

Besides, the Calvinists say that they have support from the Bible which teaches that God does indeed show preference for some:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).

Today one of the chief spokesmen for Calvinism is Dr. R.C. Sproul and he says the following:

" From all eternity God decided to save some members of the human race and to let the rest of the human race perish. God made a choice--he chose some individuals to be saved unto everlasting blessedness in heaven, and he chose others to pass over, allowing them to suffer the consequences of their sins, eternal punishment in hell" [emphasis mine] (R.C. Sproul, What is Reformed Theology?[Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 2005], 141).

How would you answer and Sproul's assertions which he thinks is supported by verses like that one?
As my brothers little kid learnt in Sunday school...the devil quotes half truths. Christians are to look at the whole truth. Calvinists fail to zoom out and look at all scripture. Either that or they fail with the dictionary explanation of the popular and very common phrase 'God is no respecter of persons'. God predestines AND God is no respecter of persons. God pre-planned X, Y and Z AND God is no respecter of persons. It is not rocket science. It is Christianity 101.

Are we not imitating the devil (when tempting Jesus) when we quote "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4). WITHOUT James 2??? It is written 'angels will catch you'....yes well done, you grasp English 101 but fail at Christianity! It is also written that we must not tempt God. Now with something like free will....

I will get back to you on ''How would you answerand Sproul's assertions which he thinks is supported by verses like that one''.
 
I guess my argument against predestination would be this-it would be pointless for us to be commanded to 'teach/ preach the Gospel to every creature' unless it was purely a measure of obedience. Which really does not make sense when you consider the depths of our Creator. Seeing the whole picture, if you will; means the Lord has multiple reasons for us to tell unbelievers about the Gospel-to make them believers (if they so chose). No, not all will be saved-but I think the Bible makes it clear that God's desire IS for ALL to be saved-'that none should perish,' 'to save what was lost.'

If we are already numbered, then I might as well sit on my couch and watch football and not bother with Church or fellowship, or soul-winning, or forums, etc, etc, etc...
 
I fail to see how Eph 1:4 teaches predestination the way to is preached.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
To read without understanding: "One day the Lord fired up His Ipad and filled out a 'wish list' of people to one day give a home to.

To read with understanding: From the very beginning, the Lord has purposed that those who would turn to Him would live and be blessed forever. Not that He purposed who would turn and be saved. And think of it as His purposeful plan for the future, rather that a 'spare of the moment' thing......a plan 'B'.
Consider the following:
Eze 18:25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?
Eze 18:26 When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die.
Eze 18:27 Again, when a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life.
Eze 18:28 Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
Eze 18:29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?
Eze 18:30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin.
Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live."
There is no injustice in the Lord. There is uncompromising Holiness, there is uncompromising love.
Surely when any turn from sin to seek God's grace they will find forgiveness and acceptance.
The Canaanite woman with a daughter in dire need was not of the house of Israel. yet....
Matt 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Matt 15:25 But she came and knelt before him, saying, "Lord, help me."
Matt 15:26 And he answered, "It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."
Matt 15:27 She said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."
Matt 15:28 Then Jesus answered her, "O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed instantly.
Does this speak of predestination....No! it speaks of love and compassion for the ones created in the image of God.
It speaks of God being a reasonable God who considers each person as an individual, not a statistic, not a member of a subset.
 
" From all eternity God decided to save some members of the human race and to let the rest of the human race perish. God made a choice--he chose some individuals to be saved unto everlasting blessedness in heaven, and he chose others to pass over, allowing them to suffer the consequences of their sins, eternal punishment in hell" [emphasis mine] (R.C. Sproul, What is Reformed Theology?[Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 2005], 141).
How would you answer Ephesians 1:4 and Sproul's assertions which he thinks is supported by verses like that one?
I agree with Calvin's explanation on Eph 1:4.

I googled Sproul. Seems he is an avid Calvinist not supporting even 'four-point' Calvinism as he claims that a person who really understands the other four points must believe in limited atonement. I really would love to sit him down and have a face to face discussion.

If there is limited atonement then why are Calvinists...... not killing their babies? I just cannot not get frustrated with how silly the belief is! It is only when one believes / grasps free will and that God is no respecter of persons (which includes babies and all humans) that we can grasp why we must not kill our babies. Calvinism not surviving this absurd example = Calvinism debunked at the extremity. No need to discuss further.
 
KingJ,

There are many Christians who teach this. Only God knows who truly believes the gospel so I am not willing to argue that Calvinists are not Christians.

Otherwise we are just on a stage acting out Gods play. Now this wouldn't make much sense, would it? God give us the beauty of Free Will.
 
Can you cite any instances where someone "regenerated" where faith did not precede it, or an instance of regeneration where the target wasn't cooperative?
 
Can you cite any instances where someone "regenerated" where faith did not precede it, or an instance of regeneration where the target wasn't cooperative?

Nope, not me.

Think about this for a moment. If regeneration comes before faith, dosen't that mean that God causes us to be born again completely without any faith in Christ. Does that make any sense at all??? It means that "regeneration before faith" is not only unbiblical, but totally illogical.

Since that would be the case, what we would is not only a person who was saved independent of his faith in Christ, but one who even AFTER he is saved hasn’t put his faith in Christ. Do people not think these things through before trying to teach them to others?

Wouldn't that make such a person a "saved un-believer, a regenerated un-believer"???? Is there such a thing????

Crazy folks, just crazy!
 
Pretty much. By the time Christ comes in the clouds, the mark of the beast will have been instituted. Otherwise, I would insist on the seeing is believing
 
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