I really don't want to go any further until we come to some sort of end on this topic: You didn't acknowledge that "saints" meant
"a most holy thing, a saint," my friend... That is what it said, right? SO,
if that verse (Eph. 1:13) is written to the saints, which it was,
then (remember:
conditional conjunction if/then)
A saint, is one set apart, a holy thing would be one separated from the others. The SABBATH DAY of the seven was set apart. There were other sabbaths set apart as well. It's special, one to be acknowledged and reckoned.
When "saved" you ARE set apart. But you aren't yet converted to be different. You have God's Grace that He will honor his promise and accept you as you are. And the change starts there. That isn't the end as many sin centric faiths teach. There is a start of a race where he actually changes you. Where you grow in love. Growing in love, is HOW sin is eliminated in my view. If you love as Christ commanded in matt 5:48, as God does, how can you still sin? If you are made as mature as Christ was in ephesians 4, and it says nothing less, how can you sin? If you walk in the light AS HE DOES, how can you sin? If you are in HIM as Christ was IN HIM, john 17 prayers, how can you sin? It was HIM who enabled Christ. So, yes there are a handful of examples than you have to discredit or belittle the words in the verses to say we can't be put there in this life.
But perfection is measured in love, not sin. No sin would be a result of the perfection in love. You can't learn to love by not sinning, but you will not sin if you learn to love as He does. It's not about YOUR conquering of sins, which those taught burn in hell from sin doctrine will be trying hard to do. That's why they only see impossible, because they measure it on what they can do. It's not about us, it's about what HE can do. Could moses use FIFTY sticks and part the red sea with out God?
Eph. 1:13 (KJV) "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."
Perhaps that was to a group of mature believers, perhaps the leaders of the Church at Ephesia, that were mature? It could also be what is called a historical present, but that's going to be a stretch for you to consider, I'd think, at this point. Not calling you dumb or anything, it took me years to think it had any credibility. But it was one of those things sitting there just nagging at me, and kept popping as up as a possibility. Historical present is where you address a group of people, or some event, and you speak as if you are one of them. For example, picture a Greek philosopher speaking at the town fountain about the battle of the pass of thermopylae. He would speak, perhaps, as if he WERE Leonidas leading the charge. And the events of the battle would be told through His eyes. It is used in two ways, one you see today. It's a bit theatrical, but it makes the tale more interesting to convey the history. This is Romans 7 starting around vs 6 or 7 to the end. 7:5 Paul says he is not in the flesh, so the parts after that are explaining how the flesh nature came to be upon his people.
The other example you see today. Al Gore was speaking at a black congregational church in southern mississippi. He avoided saying, "you people" just fine. Instead he said we, us, when I am doing the work of another I expect equal pay. (which was a lie he wouldn't take the pay cut...) But he spoke as if he were one of them. If you separate yourself from someone by presenting yourself as better, among, or just different, you are excluding yourself and won't be considered.
Greece was the birth of organized politics. They taught speach, math, and philosophy in the colleges. That covered empirical and broad scope pondering, and how to present it in a way to be convincing. Paul was a student of Gamaliel. Gamaliel, traditions says was from the Aristotlean schools. Aristotle 400 years earlier, his thoughts still being taught, was the tutor of the greatest conqueror the world has ever known. ALexander the Great. Paul was a well educated man. To see him using an advanced form of speach is not a stretch by any claim.
But, that's that, speculation, ultimately whichever way we think. So you have to figure out your own answers.
I can tell you how I got to mine though.
I trusted what I heard and believed in Him, (that's all I have to do) and He sealed me with His Holy Spirit. Simple. He is in me causing me to do the works which He has set before me.
You trust him to seal you. If you are sealed or not, doesn't matter, does it? If you trust HIM to do it, it will be done. If I can make that claim today is irrelevant. Heck, I can't speak for God's mind and intent, I wouldn't begin to. I'm trusting Him to get done whatever HE deems will be done, if I understand how, or why, or what.
NOW, milk drinkers are absolutely covered by Christ's atoning sacrifice! But, in Eph. he was not addressing milk drinkers.
I certainly understand why you say that, but it's not a definite conclusion. In fact the mroe we realize you can be saved and still a milk drinker, the more distinct some of these verses become. Some verses telling a milkie what they need to do to be... and what it is to be...a meaty can be discerned as different things. A lot of people claim both for themselves. So when you have a milkie claiming benefits of the meaty, you get some really confusing doctrine. Like you see with people dancing around 1 john 3:6, 3:9, 5:16, rom 8:"9, etc... I'm speaking from how I see it here, not saying I'm right. I THINK I am right, but.... only God knows. And I've changed my views many times to get here, and may change some more.
I'm not accurately following you on this one... gonna need the remedial version of this question, please
:
Xian Pugilist said: "In 1 john 1 john and his coterie, "us" were in fellowship with Godl. Those he wrote to were not. But Christ still spoke for their sins if they confessed.... whazzat do for ya?"
No, we (none of us, not milk drinkers nor meat eaters) are not there (fully mature) yet, but onward we press for the prize to which He has called us!!
1 john 1 is a different study. I may make that a youtube video and post it. That would be easier in text, AND there would be less guessing at tone behind my words and more clarity. I think I'm not supposed to open up threads too much. And may be over the desired goal already.
OR we can do it in email/PM/whatever.