mhroy

Elias soul "reincarnated" into the John:

Luke 1:13-17
13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord

smellycat

very true.also Jesus says there are some here.1 ad.who will see me coming back.lot of wisdom.

Boanerges

The language can be easily missinterpeted which is where the Vines Expository Dictionary comes in handy. As a word can have so many meaning depending on it's use and the gramatical structure of the sentence it is important to have a clear reference of which definition to use. If you scroll down to the notes highlighted in red you will see the meaning of coming in the spirit of Elias plainly is in reference to charecter and not reincarnation. Although not necessary to this definition I have included all aplications of the word pnuema to demonstrate both the complexity of the language and the possibility for confusion.

pneuma (G4151) primarily denotes "the wind" (akin to pneo, "to breathe, blow"); also "breath"; then, especially "the spirit," which, like the wind, is invisible, immaterial and powerful. The NT uses of the word may be analyzed approximately as follows:
"(a) the wind, Joh_3:8 (where marg. is, perhaps, to be preferred); Heb_1:7; cf. Amo_4:13, Sept.; (b) the breath, 2Th_2:8; Rev_11:11; Rev_13:15; cf. Job_12:10, Sept.; (c) the immaterial, invisible part of man, Luk_8:55; Act_7:59; 1Co_5:5; Jam_2:26; cf. Ecc_12:7, Sept.; (d) the disembodied (or 'unclothed,' or 'naked,' 2Co_5:3, 2Co_5:4) man, Luk_24:37, Luk_24:39; Heb_12:23; 1Pe_4:6; (e) the resurrection body, 1Co_15:45; 1Ti_3:16; 1Pe_3:18; (f) the sentient element in man, that by which he perceives, reflects, feels, desires, Mat_5:3; Mat_26:41; Mar_2:8; Luk_1:47, Luk_1:80; Act_17:16; Act_20:22; 1Co_2:11; 1Co_5:3, 1Co_5:4; 1Co_14:4, 1Co_14:15; 2Co_7:1; cf. Gen_26:35; Isa_26:9; Eze_13:3; Dan_7:15; (g) purpose, aim, 2Co_12:18; Phi_1:27; Eph_4:23; Rev_19:10; cf. Ezr_1:5; Psa_78:8; Dan_5:12; (h) the equivalent of the personal pronoun, used for emphasis and effect: 1st person, 1Co_16:18; cf. Gen_6:3; 2nd person, 2Ti_4:22; Phm_1:25; cf. Psa_139:7; 3rd person, 2Co_7:13; cf. Isa_40:13; (i) character, Luk_1:17; Rom_1:4; cf.

Boanerges

Num_14:24; (j) moral qualities and activities: bad, as of bondage, as of a slave, Rom_8:15; cf. Isa_61:3; stupor, Rom_11:8; cf. Isa_29:10; timidity, 2Ti_1:7; cf. Jos_5:1; good, as of adoption, i.e., liberty as of a son, Rom_8:15; cf. Psa_51:12; meekness, 1Co_4:21; cf. Pro_16:19; faith, 2Co_4:13; quietness, 1Pe_3:4; cf. Pro_14:29; (k) the Holy Spirit, e.g., Mat_4:1 (see below); Luk_4:18; (l) 'the inward man' (an expression used only of the believer, Rom_7:22; 2Co_4:16; Eph_3:16); the new life, Rom_8:4-6, Rom_8:10, Rom_8:16; Heb_12:9; cf. Psa_51:10; (m) unclean spirits, demons, Mat_8:16; Luk_4:33; 1Pe_3:19; cf. 1Sa_18:10; (n) angels, Heb_1:14; cf. Act_12:15; (o) divine gift for service, 1Co_14:12, 1Co_14:32; (p) by metonymy, those who claim to be depositories of these gifts, 2Th_2:2; 1Jo_4:1-3; (q) the significance, as contrasted with the form, of words, or of a rite, Joh_6:63; Rom_2:29; Rom_7:6; 2Co_3:6; (r) a vision, Rev_1:10; Rev_4:2; Rev_17:3; Rev_21:10."*
* From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp. 204, 205.
Notes: (1) For phantasma, rendered "spirit," Mat_14:26; Mar_6:49, KJV, see APPARITION. (2) For the distinction between "spirit" and "soul," see under SOUL, last three paragraphs.
The Holy Spirit
The "Holy Spirit" is spoken of under various titles in the NT ("Spirit" and "Ghost" are renderings of the same word, pneuma; the advantage of the rendering "Spirit" is that it can always be used, whereas "Ghost" always requires the word "Holy" prefixed.) In the following list the omission of the definite article marks its omission in the original (concerning this see below): "Spirit, Mat_22:43; Eternal Spirit, Heb_9:14; the Spirit, Mat_4:1; Holy Spirit, Mat_1:18; the Holy Spirit, Mat_28:19; the Spirit, the Holy, Mat_12:32; the Spirit of promise, the Holy, Eph_1:13; Spirit of God, Rom_8:9; Spirit of (the) living God, 2Co_3:3; the Spirit of God, 1Co_2:11; the Spirit of our God, 1Co_6:11; the Spirit of God, the Holy, Eph_4:30; the Spirit of glory and of God, 1Pe_4:14; the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead (i.e., God), Rom_8:11; the Spirit of your Father, Mat_10:20; the Spirit of His Son, Gal_4:6; Spirit of (the) Lord, Act_8:39; the Spirit of (the) Lord, Act_5:9; (the) Lord, (the) Spirit, 2Co_3:18; the Spirit of Jesus, Act_16:7; Spirit of Christ, Rom_8:9; the Spirit of Jesus Christ, Phi_1:19; Spirit of adoption, Rom_8:15; the Spirit of truth, Joh_14:17; the Spirit of life, Rom_8:2; the Spirit of grace, Heb_10:29."+

Boanerges

+ From Notes on Galatians, by Hogg and Vine, p. 193.
The use or absence of the article in the original where the "Holy Spirit" is spoken of cannot always be decided by grammatical rules, nor can the presence or absence of the article alone determine whether the reference is to the "Holy Spirit." Examples where the Person is meant when the article is absent are Mat_22:43 (the article is used in Mar_12:36); Act_4:25, RV (absent in some texts); Act_19:2, Act_19:6; Rom_14:17; 1Co_2:4; Gal_5:25 (twice); 1Pe_1:2. Sometimes the absence is to be accounted for by the fact that Pneuma (like Theos) is substantially a proper name, e.g., in Joh_7:39. As a general rule the article is present where the subject of the teaching is the Personality of the Holy Spirit, e.g., Joh_14:26, where He is spoken of in distinction from the Father and the Son. See also Joh_15:26 and cf. Luk_3:22.
In Gal_3:3, in the phrase "having begun in the Spirit," it is difficult to say whether the reference is to the "Holy Spirit" or to the quickened spirit of the believer; that it possibly refers to the latter is not to be determined by the absence of the article, but by the contrast with "the flesh"; on the other hand, the contrast may be between the "Holy Spirit" who in the believer sets His seal on the perfect work of Christ, and the flesh which seeks to better itself by works of its own. There is no preposition before either noun, and if the reference is to the quickened spirit it cannot be dissociated from the operation of the "Holy Spirit." In Gal_4:29 the phrase "after the Spirit" signifies "by supernatural power," in contrast to "after the flesh," i.e., "by natural power," and the reference must be to the "Holy Spirit"; so in Gal_5:17.
The full title with the article before both pneuma and hagios (the "resumptive" use of the article), lit., "the Spirit the Holy," stresses the character of the Person, e.g., Mat_12:32; Mar_3:29; Mar_12:36; Mar_13:11; Luk_2:26; Luk_10:21 (RV); Joh_14:26; Act_1:16; Act_5:3; Act_7:51; Act_10:44, Act_10:47; Act_13:2; Act_15:28; Act_19:6; Act_20:23, Act_20:28; Act_21:11; Act_28:25; Eph_4:30; Heb_3:7; Heb_9:8; Heb_10:15.
The Personality of the Spirit is emphasized at the expense of strict grammatical procedure in Joh_14:26; Joh_15:26; Joh_16:8, Joh_16:13, Joh_16:14, where the emphatic pronoun ekeinos, "He," is used of Him in the masculine, whereas the noun pneuma is neuter in Greek, while the corresponding word in Aramaic, the language in which our Lord probably spoke, is feminine (rucha, cf. Heb. ruach). The rendering "itself" in Rom_8:16, Rom_8:26, due to the Greek gender, is corrected to "Himself" in the RV.
The subject of the "Holy Spirit" in the NT may be considered as to His divine attributes; His distinct Personality in the Godhead; His operation in connection with the Lord Jesus in His birth, His life, His baptism, His death; His operations in the world; in the church; His having been sent at Pentecost by the Father and by Christ; His operations in the individual believer; in local churches; His operations in the production of Holy Scripture; His work in the world, etc.

mhroy

Please replace the word in quotes in red in Luke 1:13-17
so I can understand what you mean,
because what you've done here is the same as if someone asked you what to believe and you would paste the whole Bible.

P.S. I would also appreciate if you reply to my personal message re: authority

Housesitter

Personally I thought the reply from Boanerges was clear, comprehensive and helpful.

If you look up the original meaning of the word spirit as used in that passage you will find that Strong says it is Mental Disposition. In other words with the same mental attitude as Elias.

As for reincarnation. Here is Heb 9:27 from 6 different translations.
(ASV) And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment;

(ISV) Indeed, just as people are appointed to die once and after that to be judged,

(KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

(KJV+) And2532 as2596, 3745 it is appointed606 unto men444 once530 to die,599 but1161 after3326 this5124 the judgment:2920

(LITV) And as it is reserved to men once to die, and after this, Judgment;
(MKJV) And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment,

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Boanerges

This would be an acurate way to render the word spirit in this particualr text and has nothing to do with reincarnation:
he shall go forth in the charecter, heart or attitude of Elias.

In modern terms you could say for example you have team spirit- or attitude.

The bible plainly declares that a man lives but once then has to face judgement either in Christ or out of Christ- this flatly refutes reincarnation.

LivingWaters

I second this post and am in full agreement with Boanerges and House.

Banarenth

OOo...can I play both sides of this, just for fun?

Rooster: Why do you even ask, you know you're going to anyway.

Bana: Yup.

kk...First, reincarnation has a LOT of different definitions depending on who you ask. And it's mostly based on what we define as our soul and spirit. Which definitely makes the whole discussion a bit difficult, because you have to define WHICH you believe is the truth before you can talk the same language. In the simplest form, You have a body and a mind (not to be confused with a brain which is only a storage vessel for your thoughts and memories).

Most consider this "mind" to be the thing that is your soul or your spirit. I look at the way God created everything, and I believe that man is a trinity of body, soul, spirit, just as God is the soul, Christ was the body, and the Holy Ghost is the spirit. After all, we are created in His image.

But...when the Bible says spirit, what is it actually referring to? Are we talking about our personalities, memories, thoughts? Are we talking about our eternal soul? There is a lot of church teachings that have helped muck this up over the years.

OK...so that's the background info...let's start with the first argument that we are reincarnated because "John had the spirit of Elias". I simply see no reason or precedence anywhere to take this as proof that the soul of Elias was actually reincarnated into John. More importantly, even if this was the case, there is no other mention of it happening to anyone else. Many New Age regions believe that even Christ was a reincarnation of Adam, and Buddah was a reincarnation of Christ, etc... But there is simply NO basis of proof for this. The thing is, even if we allow the basis of this argument to mean that Elias was literally reincarnated on Earth as John, this does not say ANYTHING about anyone else. Logic has rules, and we need to follow them. At MOST, it means that God allowed for reincarnation ONCE. First impression I get when reading that, is pretty much telling your son that he has the spirit of a great baseball player, or a friend they have the spirit of a warrior. So nothing about the statement guarantees reincarnation whatsoever.

Next..."It is appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgment". Seems ironclad, but again it's not. Because we haven't established that we are speaking the same language. Because, while it's a bit of a stretch, this could actually be used to SUPPORT reincarnation. How do we define "man"? The body? The soul? The collection of the 2 (or 3)? We haven't even properly defined what judgment means in this case. We're assuming it's the Great White Throne Judgment, or possibly some other version that involves us going to Heaven or Hell. But, was Paul even aware of these ideas? I don't really want to get into it after this great big wall of text, but if you really want me to, I could give a pretty good argument of how I could prove that this statement is referring to a single instantiation of the spirit in a body, and judgment would decide if the person needs to return to another body, and be a different "man". Reincarnation itself, already states that you are a different "man", so ultimately, the verse isn't ironclad either.

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