smellycat

thankyou.

gratefulgrace

Doesn't it say in Revelations that the two witnesses will actually BE Elijah and Moses? Not reincarnated but resurrected I guess. GG

smellycat

give me scripture.and bible type.

epistemaniac

you are absolutely right!! a shameless error on my part!! lol!!! thats what I get for thinking I could post after being up all night racked with pain and posting at 4 am... I should have just read and left it at that... mea culpa!!

epistemaniac

mh roy, as far as appealing to Isa. 65:15, there is nothing contextually which would lead either to a belief in reincarnation, which I don't think you could prove that the Jews ever believed in, or that this is what Matthew was thinking of when he said what he did concerning Elijah.

If we have to literally take it to mean that John was literally Elijah, then, given Joh 10:7 ESV So Jesus again said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep." ... Jesus must also literally be a door too ehhh?

Also:
"MATTHEW 11:14—Didn’t Jesus say John the Baptist was Elijah reincarnated?


PROBLEM: Jesus refers here to John the Baptist as “Elijah who is to come” (cf.
Matt. 17:12; Mark 9:11–13). But, since Elijah had died many centuries before, John must have been a reincarnation of Elijah.


SOLUTION: There are many reasons why this verse does not teach reincarnation.
First, John and Elijah did not have the same being —they had the same function. Jesus was not teaching that John the Baptist was literally Elijah, but simply that he came “in the spirit and power of Elijah” (Luke 1:17), namely, to continue his prophetic ministry.


Second, Jesus’ disciples understood that He was speaking about John the Baptist, since Elijah appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:10–13). Since John had already lived and died by then, and since Elijah still had the same name and self-consciousness, Elijah had obviously not been reincarnated as John the Baptist.


Third, Elijah does not fit the reincarnation model for another reason—he did not die. He was taken to heaven like Enoch, who did not “see death” (2 Kings 2:11; cf. Heb. 11:5). According to traditional reincarnation, one must first die before he can be reincarnated into another body.


Fourth, if there is any doubt about this passage, it should be understood in the light of the clear teaching of Scripture opposing reincarnation. Hebrews, for example declares, “it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment” (Heb. 9:27; cf. John 9:2)." (Geisler, Norm; When Critics Ask)

"14-15 The argument returns to vv. 9-10, stating explicitly what Jesus said there: John the Baptist was the prophesied "Elijah" (v. 14). This locates his place and function in the history of redemption and affirms again that what Jesus was doing was eschatological--he was bringing in the Day of Yahweh. The clause "if you are willing to accept it" does not cast doubt on the truth of the identification; but, like v. 15, it acknowledges how difficult it was to grasp it, especially before the Cross and the Resurrection. For if the people had truly understood, they would necessarily have seen Jesus' place in salvation history as the fulfillment of OT hopes and prophecy. That is why the sonorous formula of v. 15 is added (cf. 13:9, 43; 24:15; Rev 2:7, 11 et al.): the identification of John with prophesied Elijah has messianic implications that "those with ears" would hear. The formula is both a metaphorical description of and a challenge to spiritual sensitivity to the claims of the gospel" (Expositors Commentary, D. A. Carson on Matthew)

"This John the Baptist, preacher of repentance and faith, was accordingly the Elijah who was to come. Like the Elijah of old, John too was a preacher of repentance. The two resembled each other also in the sudden character of their appearance, the incisiveness of their message, and the simplicity of their life. True, John was not literally Elijah (John 1:21), but inwardly he was indeed, for “he went forth in the spirit and power of Elijah” (Luke 1:17), and was therefore called Elijah by no one less than Jesus himself (Matt. 17:12).
“If you are willing to accept it,” says Jesus, for he knows that accepting this truth was a matter not solely of the mind but also of the will. If the people were but willing to accept John as being truly the prophet of the Most High, then there was hope for them." (New Testament Commentary Series; Kistemaker and Hendriksen)


"This prophecy related to John the Baptist, as our Saviour here teacheth us; so, Lu 1:17 , it is confirmed by the angel to Zacharias, and Mr 9:11 . From which last text it appeareth, that the scribes had a tradition, that Elias should come before the Messiah. Their mistake was that they looked for an Elias to come in person, whenas God meant no more (as the angel expounds it, Lu 1:17 ) than one in the spirit and power of Elias, as bold and free a preacher, who should no more fear the face of men in the discharge of his duty than Elias did. Saith our Saviour, if you will believe, this John was that Elias prophesied of by Malachi." (Matthew Poole)


"11:14 he is the Elijah who was to come. A reference to Mal 4:5, which prophesied the reappearance of Elijah before the day of the Lord. Some of the people remembered the prophecy and asked John the Baptist, "Are you Elijah?" He answered, "I am not" (Jn 1:21). John was not literally the reincarnation of Elijah, but he did fulfill the function and role of the prophet" (NIV Study Bible Notes)


The following makes an interesting point both that John denied even being Elijah and that Elijah must still come because the Jews rejected the Messiah:
"11:14 he is the Elijah who was to come. A reference to Mal 4:5, which prophesied the reappearance of Elijah before the day of the Lord. Some of the people remembered the prophecy and asked John the Baptist, "Are you Elijah?" He answered, "I am not" (Jn 1:21). John was not literally the reincarnation of Elijah, but he did fulfill the function and role of the prophet
Matthew 11:7-15

11:7-15. John's question prompted Jesus to give a discourse to the crowd. Perhaps some began to wonder about John's commitment to the Messiah in light of his question. So Jesus explained that John was not weak and vacillating. He was not a papyrus reed that could be shaken by every breeze that blew. Nor was he a man dressed in fine clothes, the kind worn in kings' palaces. In fact John the Baptist wore the opposite (3:4). John was a true prophet who proclaimed the message that God demanded repentance. In fact he was even more than a prophet, for he, in fulfillment of Mal 3:1, was Jesus' own messenger or forerunner. Mark in his Gospel (Mk 1:2-3) combined this prophecy from Mal 3:1 with Isaiah's prophecy (Isa 40:3) concerning the one who would prepare Jesus" way. Jesus added that of all men who had lived on earth, none was greater than John the Baptist. And yet one who is least in the kingdom will be greater than John. The privileges of Jesus' disciples sharing in the kingdom will be far greater than anything anyone could experience on earth.

But the kingdom had been subject to violence and evil men were trying to take it by force (Mt 11:12). The religious leaders of Jesus' day (forceful men) were resisting the movement introduced by John, Jesus, and the apostles. Forcefully advancing (biazetai ) could be rendered in the passive, "is violently treated." (The verb lay hold of [
harpazousin] means "to grasp" in the sense of resisting or laying claim to it on their own). Those leaders wanted a kingdom, but not the kind Jesus was offering. So they were resisting the message and attempting to establish their own rule. But John's message was true, and if the nation would accept it, and consequently accept Jesus, John would fulfill the prophecies of Elijah. Only if they accepted the message would John the Baptist be the Elijah who was to come (cf. Mal 4:5). Because the nation rejected the Messiah, Elijah's coming is still future (cf. Mal 4:6 with Ac 3:21).
(from Bible Knowledge Commentary/Old Testament Copyright © 1983, 2000 Cook Communications Ministries; Bible Knowledge Commentary/New Testament Copyright © 1983,) 2000 Cook Communications Ministries. All rights reserved.)



All in all, the resources and authorities arrayed against your view are quite substantial, including the fact that John himself denied being Elijah. So I guess it comes down to who should we trust, you...? or all the sources above... as well as many many others that I could provide as well? Its quite easy for me to choose.


blessings,
Ken

Boanerges

Brother thanks for your concern but after having studied this it is plain to see that my understanding follows a strict translation of the original text, if following the orignal text in it's proper meanign is dangerpous than I am guilty as charged.. Your accusation of scripture twisting and mistranslation simply will not stan up to a close scrutiny of the text. A little KNOWLEDGE can be a dangerous thing- selah.

epistemaniac

exactly boanerges... and using the principle that scripture needs to interpret scripture, Luke (1:`17) gives us more detail, in that John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah. Further, if anyone ought to know if John the Baptist were Elijah reincarnated, it ought to be John the Baptist himself right?!?!?! But he very plainly denies that he is Elijah:
Joh 1:21 NASB And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" And he said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No.""


blessings,
Ken

smellycat

so why are bible,s not wrote this way.?you know there is an error,how many more are there?

Boanerges

Ken that is absolutely right and there is only one other option- that being this scripture is error and thereby bringing into question the validity of the entire New Testament:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

smellycat

so the 2 men preaching in revelation,will be the 2 that have not died.