Faith or ignorance? - Page 2

goldenroad · 10-15-2007, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beloved

I suspect that you have not be batized in the Holy Spirit...

He is suppose to be the GREAT HELPER in your life!

One of His many job ( love ) descpitionsHe draws you to Christ, and removes the darken veils over those eyes, so you can see, spiritually.

I doesn't appear that you have been washed by Holy Water, through the reading of the Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit God Breathed Word.

Hear > True and False Convertions.....And the Fathers Love Letter.......

http://www.fathersloveletter.com/flltextenglish.html

http://www.wayofthemaster.com/learntoshare.shtml

Beloved

You are still GREATLY LOVED by the Father, and us...

Been there, asked for than countless times, this among other things has led me to ask this whole question.

goldenroad · 10-15-2007, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveS

I find athiests to be more ignorant. They can't accept the idea of a God because they've seen no "proof" we're open minded enough to see that there really is much much more to this universe then what we see. If the world were exactly as we see it, all animals living on a random planet who when they die just die...... that would be very depressing, and I'd prefer to never be born.

But are we looking for truth or what we want to be true?

goldenroad · 10-15-2007, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Faith is believing in God, ignorance is placing that belief in a human. Humans fail us, Christianity isn't about a denomination or sect, or a building, or our friends, or a trusted pastor. It's about Christ.

Well, going by this anything other than atheism is not ignorant because they are not putting their trust in humans. What about scientology? While this belief is about as irrational as it gets this is not ignorant? Is it not ignorance to continue in something (that is so fantastic) with absolutely no reason to do so except habit?

Beloved · 10-16-2007, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldenroad

Been there, asked for than countless times, this among other things has led me to ask this whole question.

Hi again, what do you mean... What did you try

You don't feel the Fathers love

Been a Christian for around 3 decades, but didn't feel His love for me until 2 years ago

Then I asked.

Now I am sweept in His love and companionship everyday.

I've been greatly changed over all this years and He is still cleaning past hurts, wounds, and scars so I can be freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.:a men:

Did you hear True and false conversions

goldenroad · 10-16-2007, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beloved

Hi again, what do you mean... What did you try

You don't feel the Fathers love

Been a Christian for around 3 decades, but didn't feel His love for me until 2 years ago

Then I asked.

Now I am sweept in His love and companionship everyday.

I've been greatly changed over all this years and He is still cleaning past hurts, wounds, and scars so I can be freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.:a men:

Did you hear True and false conversions

...then i asked countless times only to be met by expectant silence then after countless times, acceptance of my situation and mediocrity.

epistemaniac · 10-16-2007, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldenroad

Being raised by strong Christian parents led me to follow the same road as them, most of the time unquestioningly or, when i did question, through tinted lenses. So i come to a point, is it faith or ignorance? where is the line in between the two? Regardless of what i've done God hasn't given me a personal reason to continue unquestioningly. And what about the bible? It wasn't even arranged until Constantine's reign a couple of hundred years after Jesus' existence, why is this God's word? Oh yeah, because 'all scripture is God-breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness.' Well, what does that show, is that it?

Faith is well-educated, though not visually based. Ignorance is uneducated and often-times, irrational. So...where's the line between the two? And how do you know which one you are (this question aimed particularly at those who were raised Christians, those who converted at a later age have, in my opinion, a much stronger base)?

But what if it is ignorance? what if i completely leave the faith and go to atheism? Is that a logical alternative? If the whole basis for questioning is to find a REAL purpose (one that you can no by faith...NOT IGNORANCE) then any other atheistical purpose would be self-created and merely a made-up diversion from the need for a real purpose...so...that leaves me ina puddle.

Interesting questions golden rodâ€¦.
My own faith came later in life, as I was raised in a non-Christian homeâ€¦ I went to a secular Univ., a Liberal â€œChristianâ€ Univ and finally a conservative Christian Univâ€¦. so I have had a pretty broad look at worldviews and settled on Christianity BECAUSE it is a faith that is based on historical events and evidence, and has, I think, the best evidence to account for the material world around us, and is the most reasonable faith there is, far more reasonable and rational than atheism or agnosticism. I have to also point out that if materialistic atheism is trueâ€¦ that is, if we are all just accidental collections of molecules the result of random forces and time plus chance, then every utterance the atheist makes is, itself, utterly meaningless because all of life is therefore meaningless. It also means that whatever the atheist says is, itself, nothing more than a random act in a random universe and is not the result of a rational mind coming to reasonable conclusions, instead it (their â€œargumentsâ€, every single one of their thoughts) are all simply chance meaningless occurrences and the atheist can therefore provide no REASON that I ought to listen to anything he or she has to say, for their very existence is simply due to a cosmic accident that produced them, and their lives are controlled by strictly physical occurrences, nothing more than chemical reactions in the brain produced by the environment. Thus, if atheism is true, it is false, it is self referentially false in that it falls to all its own â€œtruth testsâ€.
Where is the line between faith and ignorance you ask? Well firstly always remember that any question you aim at the Christian worldview must also be equally applied to every other worldview, including atheism and agnosticism. Not doing so is a basic mistake by many, who think that if Christianity is untrue, then the default belief system is atheism or agnosticism, but there are far too many other worldviews competing for any one single other worldview to be a default if Christianity is thought to be untrue. The Apostle Paul points more towards blatant Hedonism if Christianity is untrue: â€œeat drink and be merry, for tomorrow we dieâ€â€¦..
Here at first I think the best advice to give you is to see if your local library has the book by Ravi Zacharias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravi_Zacharias and http://www.rzim.org/ ) called â€œCan Man Live Without God?â€ Ravi is a Harvard educated man and is a brilliant thinker and logician. I think this book as we as a few others are devastating to the atheistic worldview. Secondly, and I think this book is especially good for those raised in Christian homes, is a book by Os Guinness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Os_Guinness) called â€œIn Two Minds: Doubt and How to Resolve Itâ€.

As far as the Bible goes, remember that it did not just â€œpopâ€ into existence at the time of Constantine, the King James Version did not just drop out of the sky because Jesus and the Apostles spoke Elizabethan English! J The writings were already there, the church had to determine what books were legitimate and which ones were not. We can be pretty sure that all the books we have were penned by disciples or one step removed from them, and we know that while the books we have are genuine, and we also know that we do not have all the books written by the apostles or writers of the NT as books are alluded to by Paul that we have no record of. However, how we got the Bible is an interesting and lengthy subject and to do justice to your questions you need to be willing to actually dig and do the work of exploring and looking for answers. Again I would recommend a book to you, this one is called â€œSola Scripturaâ€ by Keith Mathison, â€œThe Canon of the NTâ€ and â€œThe NT Manuscripts; Are They Reliable?â€ both by FF Bruceâ€¦ the latter book is available online for free if you do a little diggingâ€¦ if you canâ€™t find it I would be glad to either send you a copy or point you to a website that has the bookâ€¦. Basically I encourage you to get involved in Apologetics as much as you can, as much time and effort that your life allows for you to do soâ€¦ in the meantime the good people here at this forum, and even I will try and answer specific questions as best as we canâ€¦ J Just know that it is highly unlikely that any question you come up with are totally original, that the objections and answers to those objections are plentiful, often it is just a matter of finding out where to look and doing the hard work of being able to look at yourself in the mirror that if you ask the hard questions (which is a good thing! Never feel as if you cannot question the Christian faith, if it is true, it will stand up to your questions, speaking personally, it always has for me) that you give a serious effort at looking for the answers as best as you can.
Finally, realize that absolute certainty is hard to come by, except in mathematics. This also means that absolute certainty in atheism or agnosticism is equally elusive. At some point though, while all Christians may experience times of doubt or less certainty than they have had at other times, however, there is a real element of assurance present in the Christian faith, provided both by the evidence and by the Holy Spirit where you come to acknowledge that Jesus is who He said He was, and that one day every knee will bow to Him, and that outside of Him, no one can get to God in a saving relationship.
cont

epistemaniac · 10-16-2007, 03:07 AM

Ohâ€¦ the song by the Altar Boyâ€™s was greatâ€¦ it made me think of these songs from the Seventy Sevens:

The Seventy Sevens
â€œRenaissance Manâ€
He's the high priest of the future
Controlled experiments are his specialty
Sewing up questions with mental sutures
Trying to make some sense out of reality

A renaissance man
Tearing himself from The Rock
A renaissance man
Tearing himself from The Rock

It's from "star stuff" that he's made
It's the cosmos that gave him life
How does that help him feed the poor
How does that help him love his wife

Chorus

He's cast away all thoughts of heaven
His science is full of preconceptions
His answers make me ask more questions
How many can wait on evolution

Chorus

He needs to live
On the sides of the north
In the city of Reformation
That's where he'll find his life

Chorus

The Seventy Sevens
â€œFalling Down A Holeâ€

Kundoalini
Gives me a headache
Edgar Mitchell
Is stretching his brainwaves
Buddha and Mohammed
Are still lying from their graves

Eat the candy
(spiritualism)
Wear the blinders
(solipsism)
What's it matter, anyway?
(fatalism)

Got a feeling
Like you're falling down a hole

Fence riders
You're running out of time
Backsliders
Start towing the line
Sister Carter
Make up your mind

Humanism
Is a tired old line
The logos is sleeping
Just give it some time
Evolution is preaching
"From monkey to divine"

Chorus

Angels on assignment
Spiritual Misalignment
No true deliverance
Pray for forgiveness
Chains and bonds

Holistic movement
Occultic solvents
Divination
Psychic sensation
Babble on
It's mystery babylon

"The Seventy Sevens â€œ
A Different Kind Of Light

I heard about the light of progress
I could never see that far
Couldn't find the light of success
Must've had a change of address
I don't care what the people say
There's got to be a better way
Don't want the usual merchandise
Recycled in a new disguise

I took a shot at meditation
I tried it like the old book said
All I got was more frustation
Must've had the wrong translation
I don't care what the people say
There's got to be a better way
Don't want the usual merchandise
Recycle in a new disguise

I'm following a different Light
A different kind of light
A different kind of light

They talk about a light inside you
I hope I never get that blind
I don't want to take my chances
On joining the collective unconscious
I'm waiting for the clouds to break
I'm looking for the road to take
Don't want the usual merchandise
Recycled in a new disguise

Chorus"

blessings,
Ken

goldenroad · 10-16-2007, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by epistemaniac

Interesting questions golden rodâ€¦.
My own faith came later in life, as I was raised in a non-Christian homeâ€¦ I went to a secular Univ., a Liberal â€œChristianâ€ Univ and finally a conservative Christian Univâ€¦. so I have had a pretty broad look at worldviews and settled on Christianity BECAUSE it is a faith that is based on historical events and evidence, and has, I think, the best evidence to account for the material world around us, and is the most reasonable faith there is, far more reasonable and rational than atheism or agnosticism. I have to also point out that if materialistic atheism is trueâ€¦ that is, if we are all just accidental collections of molecules the result of random forces and time plus chance, then every utterance the atheist makes is, itself, utterly meaningless because all of life is therefore meaningless. It also means that whatever the atheist says is, itself, nothing more than a random act in a random universe and is not the result of a rational mind coming to reasonable conclusions, instead it (their â€œargumentsâ€, every single one of their thoughts) are all simply chance meaningless occurrences and the atheist can therefore provide no REASON that I ought to listen to anything he or she has to say, for their very existence is simply due to a cosmic accident that produced them, and their lives are controlled by strictly physical occurrences, nothing more than chemical reactions in the brain produced by the environment. Thus, if atheism is true, it is false, it is self referentially false in that it falls to all its own â€œtruth testsâ€.
Where is the line between faith and ignorance you ask? Well firstly always remember that any question you aim at the Christian worldview must also be equally applied to every other worldview, including atheism and agnosticism. Not doing so is a basic mistake by many, who think that if Christianity is untrue, then the default belief system is atheism or agnosticism, but there are far too many other worldviews competing for any one single other worldview to be a default if Christianity is thought to be untrue. The Apostle Paul points more towards blatant Hedonism if Christianity is untrue: â€œeat drink and be merry, for tomorrow we dieâ€â€¦..
Here at first I think the best advice to give you is to see if your local library has the book by Ravi Zacharias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravi_Zacharias and http://www.rzim.org/ ) called â€œCan Man Live Without God?â€ Ravi is a Harvard educated man and is a brilliant thinker and logician. I think this book as we as a few others are devastating to the atheistic worldview. Secondly, and I think this book is especially good for those raised in Christian homes, is a book by Os Guinness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Os_Guinness) called â€œIn Two Minds: Doubt and How to Resolve Itâ€.

As far as the Bible goes, remember that it did not just â€œpopâ€ into existence at the time of Constantine, the King James Version did not just drop out of the sky because Jesus and the Apostles spoke Elizabethan English! J The writings were already there, the church had to determine what books were legitimate and which ones were not. We can be pretty sure that all the books we have were penned by disciples or one step removed from them, and we know that while the books we have are genuine, and we also know that we do not have all the books written by the apostles or writers of the NT as books are alluded to by Paul that we have no record of. However, how we got the Bible is an interesting and lengthy subject and to do justice to your questions you need to be willing to actually dig and do the work of exploring and looking for answers. Again I would recommend a book to you, this one is called â€œSola Scripturaâ€ by Keith Mathison, â€œThe Canon of the NTâ€ and â€œThe NT Manuscripts; Are They Reliable?â€ both by FF Bruceâ€¦ the latter book is available online for free if you do a little diggingâ€¦ if you canâ€™t find it I would be glad to either send you a copy or point you to a website that has the bookâ€¦. Basically I encourage you to get involved in Apologetics as much as you can, as much time and effort that your life allows for you to do soâ€¦ in the meantime the good people here at this forum, and even I will try and answer specific questions as best as we canâ€¦ J Just know that it is highly unlikely that any question you come up with are totally original, that the objections and answers to those objections are plentiful, often it is just a matter of finding out where to look and doing the hard work of being able to look at yourself in the mirror that if you ask the hard questions (which is a good thing! Never feel as if you cannot question the Christian faith, if it is true, it will stand up to your questions, speaking personally, it always has for me) that you give a serious effort at looking for the answers as best as you can.
Finally, realize that absolute certainty is hard to come by, except in mathematics. This also means that absolute certainty in atheism or agnosticism is equally elusive. At some point though, while all Christians may experience times of doubt or less certainty than they have had at other times, however, there is a real element of assurance present in the Christian faith, provided both by the evidence and by the Holy Spirit where you come to acknowledge that Jesus is who He said He was, and that one day every knee will bow to Him, and that outside of Him, no one can get to God in a saving relationship.
cont

I've spent much time studying theism v. atheism from a scientific and historical point of view and i can't deny that the evidence for a god or, to put it broadly, some external and immutable force, is undeniable. But the question i have to ask myself is 'is it logical to continue to follow a belief that has not in any discernable way revealed the truth of itself to me in a personally believable way?' I don't doubt that other Christians have very strong and very real relationships with Christ but that is elusive for me regardless of what i do or don't (not to say i try to earn anything). I guess the only thing that i long for is personal gratification in my faith, some reinforcement of my belief so that the faith is not ignorance. For several years i have searched this but it has proved to be elusive or, it seems, unattainable.

Boanerges · 10-16-2007, 03:34 AM

I will pray for you goldenroad- may you find the Fathers love.

carolinasteve · 10-16-2007, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by epistemaniac

I have to also point out that if materialistic atheism is true… that is, if we are all just accidental collections of molecules the result of random forces and time plus chance, then every utterance the atheist makes is, itself, utterly meaningless because all of life is therefore meaningless. It also means that whatever the atheist says is, itself, nothing more than a random act in a random universe and is not the result of a rational mind coming to reasonable conclusions, instead it (their “arguments”, every single one of their thoughts) are all simply chance meaningless occurrences and the atheist can therefore provide no REASON that I ought to listen to anything he or she has to say, for their very existence is simply due to a cosmic accident that produced them, and their lives are controlled by strictly physical occurrences, nothing more than chemical reactions in the brain produced by the environment. Thus, if atheism is true, it is false, it is self referentially false in that it falls to all its own “truth tests”.

Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. That's the first time I have ever heard such a responce to atheism. I think I'm gonna check those books out that you suggested to Goldenrod, since while I have my doubts in certain areas sometimes, my interest in apologetics, is more in order to be able to answer some of the very tough, very legitimate questions that Goldenrod has asked here.
I was not raised Christian, nor do I really know any one that was. I experienced God years before I finally began to let go and commit my life to Christ(an on-going process), so when ever someone says they are a Christian, I automatically assume that they have had a similar experience, and therefore cannot even fathom the possibility of atheism being an option. Godlenrod, I can assure you that God is real, and the character of God as depicted in the Bible is consistant with what I have experienced spiritually, as is the evidence of the HOly Spirit in the manner in which I have been changed since accepting Christ as my Savior. I pray that you will not lose hope that one day you will experience the same thing I, and many others here have. It is very illogical, may as well be inexplainable, and very real.

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