Boanerges

While I do believe that we serve a mericful God who would not condemn a confused or sick person it is totally unscriptural to think our prayers can help someone after they are dead- it would seem that we must leave them in the hands of our merciful God for " it is appointed once for a man to die and then the judgement".

Dusty

There is a very fine line here and for some to say that if someone has a diagnosed mental disorder or has postpartum depression and takes their life..They are not in control and I am sure they would not do such a thing if they were in their right mind. So for us to say one way or the other.... well I think we have to let God be the judge cause we don't know and understand His mind or thoughts.

Otherwise I would say all others who predetermine and do commit suicide, they are taking death into their own hands and it is only God who appoints the time of our death. And like Brother Larry says and after death the judgement so no prayers will help after we have died. We must do all our praying when we are alive.

Ecclesiastes 8:8
No man has power over the wind to contain it ; so no one has power over the day of his death. As no one is discharged in time of war, so wickedness will not release those who practice it.

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Trials prove a Christian

Love confirms a Christian

But death crowns a Christian

AmericanAngel

This is truely a hard subject.
I have an estranged friendship at the moment since January o7 over this.
They questioned whether I believed if grace covers all sin vs almost covers all sin. And that the death on the cross was almost enough to pay for the sins. They misunderstood what I was trying to say.
...........

......
never mind.... I can't do this...it still hurts...after rereading some of the conversation I can't yet get involved in this kind of conversation.

I have a friend who has overcome so much in her life, tried many times to end her life, but clung in desperation to Jesus and fought her way through all the torment.
Kinda like that video you shared, Violet.

Please just pray for me, I'm still broken hearted by this.
People obviously have different interpretations of grace.

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When we agree, together we can!

Dusty

American Angel

__________________

Trials prove a Christian

Love confirms a Christian

But death crowns a Christian

CatholicWifeandMom

Dear Boanerges,

May God be with you!

While leaving things to God is always good, our prayers are heard by God. I do not believe that praying for the dead is unscriptural, just as I don't believe that Purgatory (where I believe you go if you kill yourself or commit some other sin )

It is true that the term "purgatory" never appears in the Scripture. But such an observation is in itself insufficient as grounds for its rejection. If we took too fundamentalistic approach to questions of doctrine and the Scripture, then we ought to reject the "Trinity," the "Incarnation," "Original sin" and the divinity of Christ. No where in Scripture are these terms used, yet you and I agree on all of them. The Scripture teaches each, not by name, but by meaning. I suggest purgatory is no different. The name "purgatory" is absent in the Scripture, but the teaching is most assuredly present.

What does Scripture say about entering heaven? In Revelation we read that "nothing impure will ever enter it" (Rv 21.27). But are we not all made pure by our justification, by the blood of the Lamb? Again, such a view is incompatible with the doctrine of sanctification. There is no reason for us to believe that the one act that justified me also automatically forgives subsequent sin irrespective of contrition. Such a view is incompatible with Scripture, as well as it serving as a license to commit whatever act we so desire since forgiveness is already received or gotten without contrition. This is dangerously close to the abuses associated with the doctrine of indulgences.

Paul plainly tells us that Christians with bad deeds who approach Christ the Judge will find themselves in a fire, burning away those deeds. Such a place is not hell for Paul is speaking of saved Christians: "he himself will be saved." It cannot be heaven for there is suffering: "he will suffer loss . . . as one escaping through flames." Could it be earth during this life? For Paul "the Day" always refers to the day we are judged. Where is this place where Christians suffer loss as if by fire? It must be purgatory.

In Paul's second letter to Timothy we read in the introduction: "May the Lord grant that [Onesiphorus] will find mercy on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus. . . . Great Priscilla and Aquila and the household of Onesiphorus" (1Tm 1.18; 4.19). From the context, it seems certain that Onesiphorus is dead. (This is also the opinion of the Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible; vol 3; p 603.) Paul praises his Christian friend, Onesiphorus, for his good work, but notice Paul does not presume immediate entrance into heaven for his dear friend. (Even if Onesiphorus is not dead, Paul still asks the Lord to be merciful.) Why be merciful, if all Christians go straight to heaven. We either have Paul praying for a dead person, or we have him interceding for him for mercy on his judgment day. In either case, purgatory alone can explain such thoughts of Paul. If there is no purgatory, then Christians go straight to heaven, which is the popular Protestant belief. If this is so, then Paul's remarks are totally off base; it would be meaningless to ask mercy for Onesiphorus. Purgatory alone makes the passage coherent.

In Matthew 12.32 we read: " . . . but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven either in this age or the age to come." Such a statement clearly implies that there is a state, or "age" in which sins are forgiven. This cannot be heaven or hell for reasons already given. Purgatory alone renders this verse intelligible.

It should be added that Matthew 5.25-26 has been used, not as a proof text for purgatory, but that Jesus' words can be used in an analogous sense for purgatory. I do not say that this passage is a direct reference to purgatory, but that purgatory is like what is illustrated in this passage: "I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."

The last Scripture reference to purgatory is the clearest, but it in 2 Maccabees, a book rejected by the Protestants. Let me quote the pertinent section:


The next day they came to Judas to have the bodies of the fallen taken and laid to rest among the relatives in their ancestral tombs. But when they found on each of the dead men, under their tunics, amulets of the idols taken from Jamnia, which under the Law prohibits to Jews, it became clear to everyone that this was why these men had lost their lives. All then blessed the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings hidden things to light, and gave themselves to prayer, begging that the sin committed might be fully blotted out. Next, the valiant Judas urged the people to keep themselves free from all sin, having seen with their own eyes the effects of the sin of those who had fallen; after this he took up a collection from them individually, amounting to nearly two thousand drachmae, and sent it to Jerusalem to have a sacrifice for sin offered, an altogether fine and noble action, in which he took full account of the resurrection. . . . This was why he had this atonement sacrifice offered for the dead, so that they might be released from their sin.


Whether or not one accepts this book as canonical, it nonetheless is an historical presentation of Jewish belief around 124BC. We see that the sin offering was offered not only for the living but for the dead.

God bless you!

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Boanerges

I am not intending to argue with anyone but I do prefer to let the bible speak for itself- anything a man adds to it will only be corruption- that being said if you feel the need to pray for the dead I cannot see it harming anyone so go ahead- I personally feel that it's the living who need our help- but then again we can agree to disagree on those points- whenever someone points out their beliefs I simply refer to scripture and display what God's Word says about it- their is nothing personal or derogatory about it- God's Word is the ultimate standard bar none- many,many blessigns on your day and His peace on your house- brother Larry

CatholicWifeandMom

Dear Boanerges,

May God be with you!

You are a true Christian! I think we may agree to disagree but with the thought we are all doing as Christ instructs us to do - help each other get to Heaven.

God bless you!

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Boanerges

And you Sister!

smellycat

suicide are people who come to there senses,realise the hurt they have caused and wish no more suffering to others as well as themselves.God judges nobody else.

Amisk

You are partly correct.

I once fully agreed with you. As I spent a little more time thinking about the topic and in understanding the mentally challenged, I came to think somewhat differently.

First of all, you are correct if the person involved mentally understands what he or she is doing, then they are likely held fully responsible for their act.

Mental problem can be from birth, from injury or disease, or drugs supplied by a doctor, anything that robs a person of their full mental faculty. On the other hand I believe that the same rule of thumb would hold true for folks with mental problems as it does with children under the age of accountability.

This being the case I believe that judgement of suicide victims will have to be left to God alone because we will likely never know what their mental state was when they decided to end their life.

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