Boanerges

I love giving and consider it a priviledge- I don't have to worry about were it goes because I know my pastors heart - my local church supports other churches all over the globe and has a huge local outreach and ministry program to the poor, elderly and to Katrina victims. If I was in a church were I couldn't give because I thought my contributions were being wasted as a good steward I would find another church were the leadeship could be trusted- I love Jesus and not giving would grieve my spirit-
I know some folks who look for reasons not to give but I like to look at it this way- Jesus wants us to give- not just our finances but our time and effort as well- it has been said that 10% of the church supports 90% of the work, perhaps we as a body need a 90% heart check.Perhaps this scripture truly puts it best- if I am not spending my time and resources helping others then something vital is lacking

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
In His Name Larry

violet

ElBob

Amen, Larry!

This thread is very interesting to me, because my wife and I are missionaries in a third world country and have seen the starvation, disease and hopelessness up close and personal. It is easy to bash churches for not being frugal, but what about ourselves?

My conviction to give abundantly came after I returned form my first short-term mission trip. My daily Mountain Dew habit (1 per day) cost more than 40% of the people in this 3rd world country earns in a day.

Someone said they did not support tithing to their church, neither do I. It all belongs to God! It is much more blessed to give than to receive and/or hoard up where thieves break in a steal or moths or corrosion destroys it.

It is a shame that many can trust God with their soul but not their billfold.

Thanks again Larry.

reekie

You are too generous VIOLET,
But it must be more than a coincidence that this week the local free newspaper - used to deliver it a year or so ago myself until I fell - has on its front page in large bold print
"1/3 IN POVERTY"
"Over a third of the population of Peterhead is living in abject poverty...." The Editor starts.
I am sorry I have not the technical expertise to transfer it to this post.
A few of the churches are dishing out free or cheap "TEAS" - my wife is away with a friend to one just now.
The editor of the newspaper went on to say that "SOUP KITCHENS" are not the responsibility of the churches but of the local council who all now earn very good salaraies - when I was young in the 1930's they donated their effort and time free for the good of the community?
The Editor goes on to say that he is immediately donating 5% of his council salary (he has just been elected last month.) to start a "BUCHAN COMMUNITY TRUST FUND" which the whole of Scotland shoul;d have done when North Sea oil was discovered and as NORWAY and The Shetland Isles have done.
Billions have flowed through this small country to the hoards of wealth stored in that "Black Hole" they call "The Treasury" in London.
MY MP's words, not mine.
The interest alone from Norway's fund exceeds their GNP which means that it will be self supporting in perpetuity.
Personally, I feel that Boanerges has missed the point. I can assure him or her that no Pastor can guarantee what is going to happen to the funds the Church sends on its way.
I've been there and I've seen it all.
In fact my wife was horrified when sorting out a very large consignments of donations from the USA - some obviouly just bought out of the shops to donate because they were still in their oringinal wrapping and some even had price tags on them - no bar code in those days.
Several missionary wives and their children came in and without a word started to select the best of what fitted them and they needed -???
Then, after filling several large bags, they left without a word to the workers in the shed.
My wife was so incensed that she blew her top and went to see a Dr Carter Morgan who she knew to be in overall charge of this work.
The next day they all meekly tripped back to the shed and deposited what they had taken. AGAIN without a word being said - but there were looks like daggers.
When handing out portions of powder milk to mothers there was a man standing a few yards away from the entrance and the "hungry mothers" went straight to him and sold the "gift!" which he emptied into a large gunny sack before him.
No doubt it was on sale in the Kowloon City Market next day.
Sorry to be so dismal but our government is always boasting that we are the sixth richest nation in the world - it varies - and yet upright decent people who have worked hard all their lives, many never smked or drank, paid their taxes and insurance stamps, and they did devoted their lives to their churches - are reduced to having to beg from the authorities.
The other day I spoke to one female in the Pensions and Benefits Office on the telephone and mentioned that it was considered to be the worst thing that a person could do in the 1930's.
Ask the council for help via "Beveridges Office" - Lord Beveridge was the man who dreamed up the welfare state and over a period of three years constructed a workable plan so that no one should ever want or fear being sick. So the office was always called "Beveridges".
"I can assure you," she said. "that we have moved on from the nineteenthirties."
She was astonished when I replied.
"Well, I can't see it."
So many in this country have lost their lives savings and pensions through no fault of their own. Probably that ONE THIRD applies to the most of the country.
Its a sad, sad sad world.
God bless all.
reekie

ElBob

What Boanerges gave you was Biblical council concerning a Christian's giving and a personal testimony about the joy of giving. Doesn't get any better than that.

No, no pastor can guarantee what is going to happen with anything, much less money. But God can. Someone may avoid judgment from a human court, but they will give account to a Holy God.

I have to disagree also on your statement, "I've seen it all." Obviously not. The majority of the money given through evangelical churches go where it is designated, with very little administrative fees attached. Most of the fees that are attached are government related.

I'd prefer to give through a "questionable" church any day, than through a so called "good" government program.

It is kind of funny in many ways, if you ask people, “do you want the blessings of God?� They say, "yes, bless me Lord!" Then you show them where God says it is more blessed to give that to receive… or freely you have received freely give… or give and it will be give to you presses down… or I will open the window of heaven and pour out such a blessing that there will not be room to receive it… and then they decide that they have had all God’s blessing they want.

I abhor legalism and the idea that Christian MUST tithe. God is all about grace and we should be too. We call our giving grace giving, because it is not limited. We are not limited to just 10%, we can give as much as our God leads us to give, since it all belongs to Him anyway.

Just my views. God BLESS you!

ElBob

Let me give you a quick example of administrative fees.

We manage a ministry in Central America, and one of our primary ministries is medical related and we import a lot or our meds for the US. For approximately $300 to $400 we can “purchase� around $15,000 worth of meds: i.e., antibiotics, antiparasite, fungal creams, vitamins, etc. Is awesome!

The “purchase� is a fee charged by a US ministry to collect, sort, store the meds. I’d love to see a government program work that efficiently! If the government had a hand in it the cost to supply $400 worth of meds would be $15,000! (Humor)

I then have to fly to the US to pick the meds and bring them back. Someone questioned me about the cost of flying the US for the meds, and insisted we should ship them. I thanked the brother for offering to pay shipping and explained that my ticket was $395 but shipping would be about $700. Then the customs and government corruption fees would be another $1,000 or so.

After the meds are here, we personally distribute them, absolutely free of charge and even pay all the expenses associated in distribution.

There are always people who like the brother that questioned our accountability. Just imagine if they were as concerned for the souls of men, women and children as they were about their treasures.

Just my view.

seekinghokmah

Well said all.

Charity is an opportunity, a chance to bless another with no thought for personal gain. We do this not by opening our bank account, but by opening our arms…and to do that we have to get our rear-ends off the pew. Charity is not writing a check and sending it far away, it is standing up and drawing someone near.

__________________
Good questions, when answered, innevitably lead to better ones. The light is in the search, and the search itself is the destination.

reekie

Dear El Bob,
I will admit that in the heat of writing - it is like surfing - once you are on a wave, don't let it go - I was rather foolish in saying, "I've seen it all."
I did not go out to criticise the actual charity work but even Jesus said that we often can't see things because of the plank (mote; beam) in our eyes.
Take Violet's post about medical, social welfare coverage in the USA, etc - we are fortunate that our forefathers had the foresight and fought for and we, my generation, built a welfare state.
I have criss crossed the USA by Greyhound Bus (Just bought along with the USA School Buses by the local "First Bus" company of Aberdeen, Scotland. So I have seen a great deal there too. In fact the cowboys in Fort Worth appeared to know more about Buchan than the Buchaners.
My daughter lived in Dallas (The original is in Scotland) and is now in Tampa and I have heard an awful lot about whining, yellow bellied liberals.
Please remember that all we old poeple here have paid for what we ARE NOT getting NOW.
All of our lives we have had to pay fairly hefty National Insurance Stamps since the day we started work - 14 in my case.
No one need worry about being ill if money is a concern.
However, spectacles and dentistry were taken out of that general term and my glasses cost £136-00 - far more than my weekly pension. Some members of parliament had enough sense of duty to resign over that.
My last dental work cost the same.
Yet we have a dentist in our church who needed help when he arrived a few years ago but is now a millionaire - such are the profits in dentistry. Could he not donate some of his skills freely to the old and needy.
I have not been to a dentist in years because I am afraid of the cost. The last visit was caused by an old filling falling out and the tooth literally splitting down the middle - I had no choice but get myself into debt to get the work done.
I think I made it oviously clear that THERE WERE AMPLE if not generous supplies of clothes, food, etc. coming into that hall in Hong Kong - it was what was happening to them there that upset us.
I once drove to work past a Roman Catholic Church in Hong Kong and the street before it was literally covered with expensive high heeled shoes and the like.
They were flung there by the Chinese refugees because they were so angry at such impractical footware being handed out to them. A friend told me that there had almost been a riot over the distribution.
I cannot take the BIBLE literally or I would be selling my daughter to pay off my debts, and the slaves for food.
"It is better to dwell on the corner of the roof than dwell in a house with a quarrelsome woman."
I have never seen Jesus as being meek and mild since I was in my teens. He was rebel, determined to change the world for the good.
Most of my teens I was running "The Christian Endeavour" ( called Secretary) and our minister gave me access to many of his own books to help me write my "papers" - really, miniature sermons. I was nicknamed "The Professor" by the members.
I not only believed in reading the "BIBLE" but also books about the "BIBLE". As our minister said that not only was it the most published book in the hostory of the world but also it had more books written about it than any other book. He also said that I was wasting my time going to be an engineer but never elaborated. Perhaps he saw things I didn't. But Chalres Coward in Hong Kong wasnted to send me to a Souther Baptist Seminary - I am sure I woul be a lot better off than I am now if I had accepted his offer - but I felt I wasn't led in that direction.
In Hong Kong I knew that the crews on the company's ships were referring to me as "John The Baptist."
I was proud of the title as it, to me, proved that my message was still going out even on a solitary ship - by example, not preaching.
On one ship two other, senior, officers came to me, a junior engineer, and asked me to start a prayer meeting in the ship's hospital and, as I had a piano accordian with me, we also sang hyms from hym books I had bought in a Plymouth Brethern Meeting hall in Singapore. "Bras Besah Road." suddenly jumped into my mind.?????
I do know the economics of sending all that stuff out as lorry loads leave Peterhead every week driven by individuals, not instituions, to Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and thereabouts.
I have had my passport taken from me three times at Lagos Airport because BRITISH companies would never condescend to allowing payments of "DASH" - Bribery. Scandanvians at the airport sympathised with me, a stranger, because their companies gave them the money to pay the "DASH".
Just as British police are accusing BAE of living in the real world and paying a MILLION pounds to the Saudi Ambassador to the USA to get a desperately required contract and keep thousands of British workers in work.
But I think you should reconsider the fact, if one third of your home town people are living in abject poverty, would you ask them to put a minimum of £60 into the collection bag in the church when they may have a weekly pension of fiftyfive pounds.????? OR LESS!
Our Church has!
Many women in Britain are getting state pensions of 15 pence or 18 pence a week because the system tied them to what National Insurance Stamps their husbands had paid during their working lives.
It costs more to process and send the pension than the amount they get?
So, for my part, you can be as doctrinal as you want but it still does not excuse a so-called Christian country to feed others whilst many in their own population live barely above the existence level.
God Bless you all.
We all need it.
reekie

AmericanAngel

Hey Violet and reekie-
I use *word* document and then copy and past it on the forum I'm on. Or you could just check the *remember me * box when you log on!

__________________
When we agree, together we can!

ElBob

Brother “Professor� Reekie,

I did not mean what I said as a rebuke. My apologies if it came out that way. Forgive me. Like Paul in his writing to the Galatians, I wish the recipients could hear the tone of my voice.

Really, I sympathize with the situation there, and I also detest so called “ministries� that pretend to represent the Lord, but only work for gain.

Our forefathers (USA) did not desire the kind of government that we now have. A large, powerful government was what they feared most. They certainly would detest of a government welfare system. This does not insinuate that there should not be compassion and assistance for those who are in dire straits. But assistance, according to our founding fathers and the Bible, should come from individuals, churches, and other non-government organizations, and not the government. Then it would be much less costly, much more efficient, with almost no corruption. There certainly would not be the problems that are so prevalent in the US, Scotland, the UK, and the rest of the world – if that pattern was followed.

I often use the example of a train. If someone had never seen a train, and you showed them a train wreck, they still would not have seen the train as it was designed to operate. That is the government that we now have. Americans, for the last 140 years or so, do not know America as it was intended.

A lot of this applies to religion also. Most religions are a wreck. I often wonder what Paul or Peter’s response would be to today’s churches. There would probably be many, many letters of rebuke written!

We have no health care at all, my family and I. Living as we do, in the US and then in El Salvador, it is difficult to administrate and far too expensive.

I pity the dentist you spoke of. That is sad, indeed. We have been very blessed in El Salvador to meet and work with many doctors and dentists who offer their services totally free to the poor. They are very compassionate. But I must say that they are the acceptation, and not the rule.

I want to encourage you, brother, that you can take the Bible literally, but we must take it within context (as it was intended), remembering it is not a rule book, but rather a book of principles, that when applied in the spirit of grace, we can experience a worry-free and joyful life.

Jesus was not of this world. That is why He appeared to be a rebel. The world was (is) "upside-down." Only He is right-side up. He was the epitome of meekness. Meekness is power under control. (Like those fine horses you have in Scotland!) As God, He is all-powerful, yet merciful, patient and compassionate. He didn’t come to change the world but to change the hearts and minds on men and women.

The Bible is a miracle, indeed. It hurts me to see people in these forums attempt to tear it down in order to build themselves up as intellectuals. I think they have allowed their schooling to get in the way of their education.

You would have loved the Southern Baptist Seminary, brother. I don’t take upon myself a denominational name, don’t even refer to myself as a Christian – but as a believer or follower, but we are from a Southern Baptist church. They are not perfect, but over-all they seem to be the closest on Bible doctrine. Also, they tend to not lean toward fill-in-the-blank theology. If something is not completely clear in Scripture, most will tell you that there are various views.

I have always wanted to sail. Not the frilly cruse ships, but on those big cargo ships. I have a little mechanical and electrical engineering in my background and am amazed by those cargo ships. We went to Charlestown, SC once for vacation. All the family went to the beach and I went to the docks to watch them unload.

Your reference to giving. No, is not right to ask people to give money. I think I mentioned grace giving in a previous post. Like I said, God is about grace, not rules. He does not require His children to give a certain amount, nor does He limit them. We live in El Salvador. More than 40% of the people here earn less than $2 a day, yet the cost of living here is about 20% higher than in the US. Most live in “champas� - huts constructed of tin or adobe. Is very sad, indeed. But Christians here are very generous and eager to help those in worse condition than they are. Many churches actually took up voluntary offering to send to the victims of hurricane Katrina. Was very heart-warming to witness that.

I enjoy posting with you. I have always wanted to visit Scotland, but probably never will. My family has Scottish / Welsh lineage and I would enjoy giving the place a good look-over.

God bless you and please know that you are in my prayers.