Boanerges

there are 3 basic types of christians- see which catagory you fit into:

1. the outercourt christian- this was the largest place of worship in Israel- and the most common type of believer- it was set aside for those who would come only close enough to perform their obligatory religious practices- the outercourt believe wanted to be forgiven and blessed but would never come any closer to God than necessary to acieve this

2. the innercourt believer- this was a place were the work of God took place- the believers here would demonstrate a servants heart and love spent much of their time performing necessary tasks- they were closer to God and were much closer to His annionting but always just outside His manifest presence

3. the holy of Holies believer- the most intimate of all-this is the place were the blood of the Lamb was applied to the merct seat which covered the book of the law- the place were God and man met was the place that mercy covered judgement- this is the only place were God and man can meet face to face- this is the place God is now calling us as signified by God's rending of the temople curtain from top to bottom at the death of our Lord on the cross- accept His invitation- enter into His Glory- enter into His awesome fellowship and presence for your heart will never be satidfied if you worship from afar!

James

Can you direct me on where I can read on this in scripture? I would like to read about this.

Epistimaniac had posted about two types of christians - the carnal christian and the spiritual christian as written in.....Corinthians? Should have looked up again before I posted.

Anyway, how does all this fit together?

Thanks, James.

Boanerges

Hi James- it has been said that the old testamant is Christ concealed and the new Christ revealed- a simple study of the tabernacal as given to Moses by God will give you all the info you need- - there are dozens of good works written on this very subject that can give you insight into this area- I would reccomend Judson Cornwall's book Let Us Draw Near- it is a short read- but jammed full of info and after reading it you will began to see Jesus and His church on every page of the old testament.
As far as types or catagories there are many ways to classify oneself and this can vary depending on the criteria you use- so no contradiction there.

epistemaniac

hey guys

James.... just to clarify... I personally do not believe that there are "carnal" Christians and spiritual Christians... though many many people do... this doctrine is taught by Bill Bright and Campus Crusade... is often found among Dispensationalists from Dallas Theological Seminary (but not all Dispensationalists to be sure!!), and persons who are involved in a turmoil that has been going on in Christian circles for some years now... a debate between people adhering to a doctrine called "Lordship Salvation" and another group who have called themselves "Free Grace" or "non-Lordship" advocates.... basically this latter group is trying to defend salvation by grace alone through faith alone and they say that works are in no way necessary for a person to be a Christian or to ever be a Christian.... these "Christians" are "carnal Christians" who may never do a good work their entire lives... they may even verbally reject Christ and still supposedly be Christians! persons holding to this position are famous teachers like Charles Stanley, Zane Hodge, Charles Ryrie... all these men are dispensationalists... but one of their most vocal and harshest opponents is also a dispensationalist named John MacArthur... other books written against the non Lordship position include Mike Horton's Christ the Lord, which happens to be my personal favorite on the issue.... at any rate.... these Lordship Salvation folks are not preaching salvation by works by any stretch of the imagination.... they just teach that if a person truly is saved, they will in fact do good works which reveal this fact.... the types or amount of these works will vary from person to person and even within the individual Christians lifetime..... Martin Luther put it like this:

"Salvation is by faith alone, but never by a faith that is alone"

if you would like to study this issue further let me know and I can get some links around for you... be glad to as a matter of fact or you can google "Lordship Salvation" and you will no doubt get many hits....

as far as the 3 types of Christians Larry is speaking of.... I can see his point, most definitely... but just to add another slightly different look at the same issue.... in one sense.... there really is only one type of Christian here in the new Covenant.... one of the most interesting things that happened just as Jesus died on the cross was that in the Jewish temple there was a very thick (4 inches) and tall curtain that separated everyone except the high priest from the Holy of Holies, and then he went in only once a year, in order to sacrifice 2 goats, one would be slain and the priest would lay his hands on the other goat and send it out into the wilderness as he symbolically transferred the sins of the entire nation onto the second goats head and these sins were then "taken away" as the goat was sent outside the city gates... of course you can see the parallelisms in Jesus' own crucifixion, as He was slain (as Hebrews 9:22 says, without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins, but it also says that it is impossible for the blood of sheep and goats to take away sins Hebrews 10:4....) ...

but getting back to the temple curtain.... when Jesus died on the cross this temple curtain was torn in 2, and even more interestingly, it was torn from top to bottom signifying that it was God, tearing the curtain from above.... and it was God who was taking away this "wall of separation" that kept everyone but the high priest from entering the holy of holies....

(Matthew 27:50-51) And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit. And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split.

this means that every single Christian ought to be a holy of holies type of Christian....

(Hebrews 4:14-16) Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need."

but Larry's point is a good one.... there are nominal Christians, well... hopefully they actually are Christians.... and there are "busy bee" Christians who may be mistakenly thinking they are working their way to heaven... but often end up quitting church altogether because they are always getting asked to do things and perhaps they have trouble saying no, so they get burnt out... so they really should not stop fellowshipping with the saints... this is a violation of God's scriptural command to come together in public worship.... what they need to do is to learn to say no and those who rely on them time and time again should be sensitive to their inability or unwillingness or reluctance (or they are simply guilt manipulated into doing yet "one more thing for the kingdom) these people in leadership... who head up activities etc should help such persons to say "no" and cut them a break.... stop asking them to do too much... not just one more meeting.... not just one more meal to help with... not just one more bible study to lead.... just a little bit longer with the worship team etc etc ....... I am not saying we ought not help and do what we can, of course we should.... but too much activity can actually rob a person of their relationship with God because they are just doing too much to fellowship with God in their daily devotions and private prayer life etc... there needs to be a balance between the inward and outward spiritual life and what that balance will be will be different for different people... a mother of 4 very young children can not be expected to do the sorts of things someone else might be able to do...


blessings,
Ken

Boanerges

Indeed you can classify all people in 2 groups- the saved and the usnsaved- however- there are all differnet levels of relationship with Christ, maturity, wisdom, faith and on and on- my question was only intended to provoke some of the brethren on the fringes of Christendom to come in and expierience a deeper realtionship with Jesus

Bassmasa

I think Larry's questions is great. Count me as a former #1 (outermost) who has found his way to #2 and is earnestly seeking to get to #3. In my case, #1 was "good enough" for me, but good deserves more than good.

It's funny, times when I really communicate with the Holy of Holies are so special that I realize just how little I know of Him. A Newsboys song says, "To have found You and still be looking for You. It's a paradox of love." So true.

the_agent

I like to think I am Christian that loves. I think this is the most important type of Christian. This is all too forgotten in much of the church these days. I have been to 35 states and 7 countries in the past two years and unfortunately have seen alot of ugliness in the church. Alot of beauty as well, but its sad when you see things like a Christian not stopping to help you but a homosexual non-christian stopping to help.....

Love is greater than faith, hope, it is the greatest, it is God....or God is love I should say. We have so many conversations and rarely does love ever get mentioned.

In the course of about 2 days I have heard a similar comment made which broke my heart and made me really think about where the church is as a whole. Someone was talking about a person who is so kind and peaceful, and the friend of that person said, WOW, she must be a Buddist....and a very similar conversation with my friend happened, and my friend said, wow, sounds like she is a Buddist or something because the person we were talking about was loving and peaceful.

Is this not what Christ was completely? Where did it get to where people associate peace, love, understanding and love more with other relgions than Christianity....alot of it is our fault. Lets love.

Boanerges

That is the whole point of this little thread brother- The closer we draw to God (holy of holies expierience) the more we manifest His qualities and His nature- if we are full of God then we will express love for God is love- if we are full of a religious spirit then we will be pharisitical in nature always pointing fingers, condeming and binding up others with rules and regulations we cannot keep ourselves- as we abide in His presence-as we abide in the vine the very life force of God flows into our spirit causing us to grow, to mature and to bear fruit-what an opportunity- we get to be the fruit bearers- the closer we are drawn into His presence and fellowship the more we become like Him- just as Moses glowed when coming down the mountain from meeting with the Almighty God we too should carry this glow- but that is only found in one place-in the greatest intimacy with Him!
We could be like the average Isrealite and walk around the desert for 40 years with shoes and clothes that don't wear out- manna falling down from heaven to feed us- the cloud to cool us by day and give rain to drink -the fire to warm us and light our path at night- these people expierienced some of the supernatural benefits of following the Lord BUT they never knew Him
We could be like the priests- always very busy in servicing the temple of His presence- always performing ritual- these were closer to God and could expierience a little more of His presence and glory as they handeled the objects of worship and even recieve communion (the bread of His presence) but they were still seperated from His Glory - they expierienced more fo God but not what you and I are called to
The person who went directly into the Holy of Holies covered with the blood of the Lamb- this person applied the shed blood of the lamb to the mercy seat ( which covered the law) would truly expierience what it meant when mercy covered judgement for He would be able to stand in the actual manifest presence of the Living God- this is the place Jesus opened up for us - the way to back to God's presence- the way of restoration as when Adam walked with God in the garden
3 courts
1. the largest was the outer court- set aside for the average person wanting to be cleansed and provided for- this was still relatively small for the nation it was supporting beacause in reality most people didn't want to get even this close- they only wanted manna and perpetual sandals
2. the second largest was the inner court- the place of service- those who felt drawn to serve God and do His will would work here
3. the Holiest Place- the inner sanctum of God'ss very presence- this is the place God is calling each one of us to today- it must be entered individually as it is a place set aside for only those who really want to spend time with Him- Selah