Theophilus

I certianly am It is going to be hard discussing this with you given you lack of knowledge concerning scripture. But I will try because you realy need some basis in truth.
Scripture (The Old Testement) did command strict dicipline and punishment, including death. And this was done at the commandmentto the Isrialites by God , not men. That being the case if we were still under the Law of the Old Testement, yes I would follow God's word.
However if you read the New Testement you will find that the church has no such authority. The limit of church authority is to remove the willful, unrepenant sinner from their congregation. And this would be quite sufficiant if the churches would do it.
But they didn't and they don't. And they are not going to start now.
Why???
Because the biblical church is not and will not be accepted in the world today.
Why???
Because it requires discernment, sacrifice, commitment, truth, and most of all forsaking ones will for the will of Christ Jesus.
This has resulted in the world now running and owning for the most part the churches.Which for the greater part explaines all the abuses that are so previlent in the churches today.

It is obvious from this that you have no idea what church is supposed to be, what it realy is or what purpose it serves for God or the individual.
The simplest way to explain it is that church is or at least should be an extention of the individuals family.

Why does a newborn baby need it's mother??? Or a young child parents and family????
Because it is through the church that God has chosen to handle (in most cases) the spiritual maturing of the individual.


It is our responcibility as followers of Christ Jesus to live to a higher standard of morality than the world. To show more integrity, more honesty and love than the world. To be more willing to sacrifice for others and help our brothers and sisters in Christ. This is not a legal obligation but a godly spiritual loving responce to the gift given by God of forgivness, love and eternial life that was paid for by the sacrifice of His only begotten Son (Jesus)on the cross.

Obviously what I'm trying to tell you is hard to accept. But try and inderstand something from this. Church is more than a bunch of do gooders killing time until their taken up to heaven.

We all sin but we don't all live in sin. A differance you don't understand I'm sure. The differance is that in Christ we struggle and fight against our nature to sin. Though we sometimes miss the mark, fall short,fail, sin we regret and repent (that is turn away from our sin) and strive not to sin as much as possible.
Where as living in sin what we do is live for the pleasure it gives with no or little desire to get away from it.

If you gain nothing else from this discussion I pray that you understand and accept this truth.
Not all that claim to be Christian and or go to church are Christians nor do they all try to change. People use Jesus' name and the church for all sorts of reasons that have absolutly nothing to do with following Jesus or believing in God.
We can "what if" until the end of time and it won't accomplish anything.
If you were trying tojustify your beliefs by using this you wouldn't have helped your cause. The crack dealer on the corner selling death at 50 or 100 dollars a pop is doing so because he or she doesn't care to survive any other way. So don't think that you can make some fictious argument that they have to to survive or feed their family justifies their actions.
Show any true Christian any person living in sin that wants to get out and they will do everything in their power to to see that they do.
And that means that they are going to be in this personon's personal private hidden life and all up in their business all the time. And if the person truely wants out then they want this because they know they can't do it themselves. They appreciate it it not fight against it.
You don't want me knowing anything about your life? Afraid I might try to make you do something you don't want to?
Fine. . . put me on ignor. Same goes for church . You don't want their help? don't want them trying to help you get or stay right with the Lord? Simply don't go. But if you go fully expect someone to get into your life. Because that is a part of what church (The real church) is. Brothers and sisters in Christ helping each other through this world of temptation and sin.

You want a church that tickles your fancy? That's fine to . For there are more of that kind of church every day. But They will do you as much good eterninaly as making buddies with your local bar tender.

freedfromdestruction

Your understanding of the bible seems a little lacking as well as the call for the church. Do you claim to be a Christian?

__________________
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steveh53

This is a great subject. How does a church police its members? I realize that we are not to shun non believers but once they are saved and receive the holy spirit, a change is expected. What is the line supposed to be within the Church? We have some "Christians" in our church, (an Assembly of God) who are living together outside of marriage. We don't chase them away but when one of them wanted to be on the P&W team, they were turned down because of this. Other than the living together they are good faithful Christians but their sin is a bit more out in the open than many of the rest of our sins. Sometimes I wonder what I am doing playing guitar on the platform when I myself are in a state of sin. I sometimes have an anger problem, and I sometimes curse, and I sometimes feel lustful. Maybe I should be thrown off the P&W team and asked to leave the church.

This is a very confusing subject because of the differences in Christs teachings and the Laws given to the Jews. Werent they told not even to eat with other Jews who were not faithful?

Steve

KennyD

I think that this is something that causes confusion in non-believers. Are you delivered from sin, if you are still sinning?

templaris, I do believe from this dialog, is not fond of being told what to do. This means that most of the bible needs be thrown away, since it is actually men (though through the Spirit) telling people what to do. Every way of man is right in his own eyes. Therefore, without the body, nothing we do would be wrong.

I'm new here, but I will point out that there is a serious lack of biblical understanding from templaris and perhaps that should be addressed.

For one, we are not under the Levitical law, but does that make murder OK?

On the other hand, not being under the Levitical law, does that mean we are not under any law?

The New Testament is full of COMMANDS and admonishments. A church that does not hold you to the line, is simply out for numbers and you may well find yourself spending eternity beyond the great gulf fixed.

KennyD

I might add one more comment directed at steveh53's post. The old testament laws are 'a shadow of things to come'. I believe God was setting things up and trying to show in a very physical way, what He wanted in the spirit.

By Him making such a separation between His people and the rest of the world, He showed that He wants us to be separate from the world. 'In' the world, but not 'of' the world.

Regarding your situation, and perhaps a new thread is in order, but I think a good discussion on 'what is sin, what is temptation' would be excellent right about now.

templaris

Well throwing people away and treating them like trash until they hold a higher standard of "your holy morality" is something you guys can do, but I will never partake, because obviously someone missed reading the NT where Jesus tells people to love each other.

and throwing people away like trash just because they're sinners isnt what Jesus would call love.

Wouldnt it be great if the church suddenly barged into your PRIVATE PERSONAL life and suddenly made your personal issues issues for the whole congregation? Wht if I had cancer and I didnt want anyone to know beside smy family? Does that mean its okay to the church to snoop around until thye find what Ive been hiding and then make a public spectacle out of it even though I specifically told everyone to keep it on the down low?


Well, your can do such things.


The mn is twice divorced. Nothing can cange this. These are things that you, the church, and God, cannot change. Why try to 'hold them responsible' for something you dont know was even their fault? what urks you? the fact hes twice divorced, or trying to get remarried to a much younger, much more attractive young woman? Anyone who has problem with this is probably just jealous and covetting something thats not theirs. yeah sure, she probably shouldnt be his anyway, but hey, she is. lifes tough. We get over these things and move on to much more important issues that should concern our lives.
speaking of which, why do I care anymore? im just going to be picked and ripped apart by radical fundamentalists who're jealous of an old guy remaryring a much younger hotter chick. I say forgive, cuz its much harder than just pointing fingers, and telling one how theyre wrong.
Forgive people! its much harder than rebuking, like youre good at.

The Bible says it should be head of the state. Or at least in the past scripture has been used to justify worldly conquest and sovereign governance. The Bible also says you can condemn women to death for adultrey....but Jesus said dont throw anystone unless you arent a sinner, and he saved mary magdalene's life! you cant save someone's life by pointing fingers and throwing retribution round like you were the right hand of God himself, sheesh.

Point- how is it good for one's spiritual developement when you lived back in Bible days? You sinned, commited adultery, and were condemned to death. How are you supposed to get into heaven if only one mistake will condemn you to death SPECIFICALLY with the intent on sending one to hell before thye can repent? yes, thts whats they were trying to do. they were trying to send people to hell for sinning by taking up one of God's abilities. I see this as a related issue.

How can one get into heaven if the people around him are trying to keep him out? Hes only doing what we all do, sin. And not a single person here TRIES to change. yeah, you can change things here and there, but it wont rid you of sin. you'll awlays live in sin, with sin and as a sinner, until you die, and thats straight from the holy word. Living IN sin is the same as living WITH sin. I see no difference, but Im sure some road scholars woul delightfully pick apart grammar, context and syntax to find some ways that they are diferent.



I say forgive. You hve their answer, which is to reject.

Two choices; bring his sins to his attention and ask him to change, OR, just throw him out without question. I say the first, the rest say the last.

we should close the topic now and open a new one on forgiveness, and acceptance.

some of your churches might hve these rules where if youre a sinner you cant compete on the softball team, but really, I'm sure God really wrries about whether or not we got on the softbll team, or got to do cookie hur last sunday because one got divorced....wow....

radical fundamental christianity can be just as dangerous as any radical fundamentalism....

and Im seeing an aweful alot of radical fundamentalists here....be careful...

steveh53

Christ forgave but He did say to go and sin no more. To me this would mean toat least try to sin no more. What do you say to people who are unmarried and live together or who are openly practicing gays. They are obviously not trying to stop sinning and have no intention to do so. They scoff at God laws but still call themselves Christian? What is the responsibility of the Church and the Pastors. What are they there for if they just look the other way and don't confront the obvious.

Steve

templaris

yes, truely. Barbara, keep this man in your prayers and politely mention to him the said pecuilarities concerning this, and try to foster a positive attitude towards reconciiling these circumstances.



If people live in sin, then thats something we struggle and live. How does one try to still keep one in sin still in our hearts?

mostly we just assume that they wont change, and until they do, we dont have anything to do with them. I say this is a negative reaction as a coping mechanism with things we'd rather just not have to deal with. But if people tried to kick me out of services just because Im a smoker, (because of not obeying scripture, we're supposed to keep our bodies clean) and I've tried to quit, but I havnt, and its rough), but its still no reason to reject me until I've come clean. We just have to forgive everyone, and keep them in our hearts and hope for the best. What else can you do besides wrathful thing, which doesnt work with what ive seen. it only begets more wrath from both sides, really.

Theophilus

Please understand that we are talking in theary here concerning this subject. There is no way we can give specific advice concerning what should be done, simply because we don't know the situation. The best that we can express is our opinion and offer a course of action.

If the situation Barbara has explained has been allowed to continue for any lenght of time there is more wrong in this church than the questionable acts of one man.
Some coarse of action needs to be taken There needs to be a solution. If this kind of behavour is left unchecked, unexamined it will distroy the church ,the people and faith in Christ if it hasn't already.


Scripture gives us guidence in the same manner. It is up to the the church congregation as a whole to make the decission. And for each member as individuals to deside for themselves (with holy spirit guidence) were they stand and what action if any they personaly will take.






Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed.
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Here are two example of guidence concerning dicipline within the church.
The first between members and the second on issues of morality.
In both examples the individual doing the wrong is given a choice after due process to either repent and mend their way or be put out of the congregation.

templaris,
With all do respect for you and your convitions on this subject, there are times when a situation must be corrected and those involved in that situation must be diciplined. In love ,for sure. But none the less situations like Bardara spoke of must be resolved by biblical standards. Open imorality cannot be allowed to exist in the church. For when it does the word of God is compromised and demeaned, not only in that church but before the world.
There is a vast differance in one who has fallen to temptation ,repented and strives to lead a holy life than one who with no reguard or regret continues a pattern of imorality and displays it as though there is nothing wrong with it.
The first is a christian and should be treated with love and understanding . The second should be treated with respect afforded the choice to either repent or be removed from the congregation.

I'm not talking about parking tickets here. I and the scripture that I refer to are dealing with matters of great eternal importance. Matters of salvation.

What you speak of as love is not love. Not the kind of love that God speaks of in scripture. Love, true love, wants what is best for another. The life styles you advocate should be ingnored or condoned in the name of love are those that will lead to eternity in HELL. True love is willing to risk the present for the eternal future.

Do you give candy to a diabetic child because it makes them happy for the moment??? Of coarce not!!! Then why would you stand aside and let another kill themselves with sins of the flesh????
If I offend you and in that offence causes a division between us that never is reconciled. If that offence causes you to repent and therefore you will spend eternity in heaven rather than hell so be it.
It is better to be absent from a loved one bound for heaven than present with one that is hell bound.

Like it or not church dicipline is a matter of great importance. A matter that needs a lot more attention than it gets these days. Because ultimately it is a salvational issue for many people.
My issue with the church is because when I needed dicipline from the church I never got it.!!!!!!! I was living in and for the flesh and nobody cared enough to tell me I was going to hell for it. Some turned their backs on me and others condoned my actions but not one said to me what should have been said. Not one went to the effort to force me to make that salvational decission!!!
The Lord diciplines those he loves and so do his followers.

-FoC-

I saw this and was wondering. Is it the age difference? That he met her on the internet? That shes foreign? the "sexy" photos ?
What is the precise problem?

I ask because Im twice divorced over ongoing and unrepentant adulteries of both ex's, and after deciding to never date or marry again ended up being led to a very godly and wonderful woman (on the INTERNET) in her early twenties (I was 37 at that time) and we are now married and have a wonderful relationship, and pray together often and are working on building a ministry (a small one to help people and lead them to Christ )together.

So is it the age difference? (we have ~18 years between us)
Is it the internet? (we met on ChristianForums.com)

Why exactly is this a problem?