Carnal Christians vs. Spiritual Christians - Page 2

JimmyWest · 10-28-2006, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LA-girl

Hi JimmyWest!

I think that what you are saying here is a very dangerous assumption to make and I strongly disagree with you. To me it seems like you are saying that if we receive the Holy spirit in the sense that you FEEL the spirit and hear the spirit, he will guide you in your walk with God and the Holy spirit will tell you when something in the bible is to be taken literally ans some things metaphorically. And that certain understanding of scripture can not be found unless you feel and hear the spirit. I have to protest against this as I know many what you would call carnal christians understand the scripture very well because they study scripture and not because they let a spirit inside them tell them that certain parts and scriptures is of less importance or which parts to take literal and not.

That is not to say that we do not need the Holy spirit, of course we do, but not in the sense you are describing. I believe that if we use the Bible in order to let it interpret itself and base theologies on several scriptures throughout the whole Bible we will get a logical and correct explaining in different biblical questions. Also using this method while studying the scriptures we will also learn when it is meant to be taken literal and when it uses symbols and allegories.

The reason why I think your assumption is particular dangerous is because there are many people in the socalled charismatic movements who say they physically feel the spirit and they trust that this spirit will tell them when something is wrong, even if it condradicts scripture. The reason I say this is because I know this to be the case as I know people have decided to trust what the "Holy spirit" tells them even though I know that it goes against the Bible. And when this happens we will soon end up with a whole different set of theologies and we will no longer know what is the truth or Gods will.

Now I also believe that when people say that they feel the Holy spirit they have a very strong feeling, but knowing that there are counterfit spirits out there who, especially in these last days, will do anything in order to deceive christians I'm afraid that when christians start trusting their feelings more than the Bible they are more prone to get into trouble and to be deceived.

Keep in mind that people in the Holy laughter movement also believe it is the Holy spirit who is responsible when the whole church starts laughing, crawling on the floor, barking and all in all posess a behaviour that you would expect to find in a mental institution rather than in Gods Holy Church.

The fact is that they think that they understand the scripture, but they don't. That is why there are over 30 different major denomonations, all doing their own thing and dissagreeing on many trivial issues. If everyone really understood scripture, the church would be united into one body all practicing from a common doctrine.

The problem, the real question is, which docrine is correct? Actually, none of them are. You only need to do three things to please God: Trust and love God. Love each other. Accept Jesus as your Lord and SAVIOR. That is all, yet the church keeps looking for more and overcomplicating things in the process.

BTW, LAGirl, nothing I say is an assumption.

M Paul · 10-28-2006, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LA-girl

Hi JimmyWest!
The reason why I think your assumption is particular dangerous is because there are many people in the socalled charismatic movements who say they physically feel the spirit and they trust that this spirit will tell them when something is wrong, even if it condradicts scripture. The reason I say this is because I know this to be the case as I know people have decided to trust what the "Holy spirit" tells them even though I know that it goes against the Bible. And when this happens we will soon end up with a whole different set of theologies and we will no longer know what is the truth or Gods will.

Now I also believe that when people say that they feel the Holy spirit they have a very strong feeling, but knowing that there are counterfit spirits out there who, especially in these last days, will do anything in order to deceive christians I'm afraid that when christians start trusting their feelings more than the Bible they are more prone to get into trouble and to be deceived.

Keep in mind that people in the Holy laughter movement also believe it is the Holy spirit who is responsible when the whole church starts laughing, crawling on the floor, barking and all in all posess a behaviour that you would expect to find in a mental institution rather than in Gods Holy Church.

There are many?!?? Can you cite a statistical study on how many?? Or are you offering merely a subjective opinion?? This is a very ugly characterization of the Charismatic movement that you have made. In fact, it is completely contrary to my studies and experiece with Charismatics. I think if you are going to so throughly degrade a group of believers in this manner, you should offer some actual evidence based on objective investigation.

M Paul

LA-girl · 10-28-2006, 11:28 AM

M Paul,

when I said many, I meant that I have seen a lot of examples personally where christians in certain charismatic churches when they get messages from "the Holy spirit" they might be sincere in trying to even find scrpitural "evidences" for what they say is compatible with the message they get. But often, from what i have seen, they have based it on one scripture taken out of context, in stead of comparing scripture with scripture.

I have also friends who are in this movement who when faced with a obvious truth in the Bible have chosen to trust what they say is a feeling that the Holy spirit is protesting against this truth, and end up choosing their feeling rather than scripture.

My point was not how many people are doing it or trying to degrade a particular movement, it was only an example (because I have personal experineced it) to show you what I believe is dangerous practise when someone trust more in feelings than the word of God. If I could erased the word, many, I would as I see that it could imply that most in these churches do, which I have no basis or wish to point out.

I also want to add that I know many people in different charismatic churches are very genuine and faithful children of God. And I apologize if it seemed like I were adressing most people in these churches, which I was not.

I hope you understand what my purpose was with my previous post and i'm sorry if it seemed like I was trying to degrade all people in charismatic churches.

Let me rephrase what I meant: What I have observed is that there are christians who when faced with a truth in the Bible have decided to trust their inner "Holy Spirit" rather than the plain word. These are peole who say like JimmyWest that they feel the Holy spirit physically, and all examples of people I know who have had these experinces has been in charismatic movements. That was all I meant, whether this is rare or not I do not know. But it obviously do happen, and it could also imply from Jimmywest's argument that he meant the same, that he trust that the Holy spirit inside him will guide Him and tell him what is to be taken literal and not. And that was my whole point: could it not be dangerous to trust a spirit inside you when the Bible teaches something different (although you might not even know it as maybe one verse taken out of context seem to support what the spirit tells you), as we know that there will be many decieving spirits in the last days?

Remember that is exactly how Satan tried to decieve Jesus in the desert. But because Jesus knew the WORD and responded with; It is written.....It is written.....in order NOT TO BE DECEIVED by the Devil. Don't you all think that the reason why it is in the Bible is to teach us how Satan is trying to decieve us and how we can avoid being deceived.

Matthew 24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect - if that were possible."

I would say if Jesus is our example we are better off to study scripture diligently in order not to be fooled by the Devil as it obviously is very possible!

LA-girl · 10-28-2006, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyWest

The fact is that they think that they understand the scripture, but they don't. That is why there are over 30 different major denomonations, all doing their own thing and dissagreeing on many trivial issues. If everyone really understood scripture, the church would be united into one body all practicing from a common doctrine.

The problem, the real question is, which docrine is correct? Actually, none of them are

.

The reason, I believe, why there are so many denominations are because churches started to mix truth with error. Christianity with tradition and even paganism. The Bible in one of the prophecies do also speak about the church going into a wilderness experience for over 1200 years, to what we commonly call the dark ages where people were persecuted for having a Bible and were often tortured and burned. But it also says that when the wilderness period was over there would arise a church that would come out from the tunnel delivering the same teachings/truth that were once delivered to the saints. Unfortunately because of the corruption in the dark ages we ended up getting a whole set of different denominations. But I truly believe that God has a church today which has a correct doctrine. Like Jesus said, if you search with all you heart you will find Him. And I think that goes for His church as well. I think when you search to find the truth you will know when you find it, the truth will set you free.

Quote:

You only need to do three things to please God: Trust and love God. Love each other. Accept Jesus as your Lord and SAVIOR. That is all, yet the church keeps looking for more and overcomplicating things in the process.

Oh, if it's that easy we might as well throw away our Bible too? Maybe it's not even necessary to keep his commandments either?

Quote:

BTW, LAGirl, nothing I say is an assumption.

No, I forgot, all you say is the one and only truth. :angel:
All others are making assumptions...

JimmyWest · 10-28-2006, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LA-girl

.

The reason, I believe, why there are so many denominations are because churches started to mix truth with error. Christianity with tradition and even paganism. The Bible in one of the prophecies do also speak about the church going into a wilderness experience for over 1200 years, to what we commonly call the dark ages where people were persecuted for having a Bible and were often tortured and burned. But it also says that when the wilderness period was over there would arise a church that would come out from the tunnel delivering the same teachings/truth that were once delivered to the saints. Unfortunately because of the corruotion in the dark ages we ended up getting a whole set of different denominations. But I truly believe that God has a church today which has a correct doctrine. Like Jesus said, if you search with all you heart you will find Him. And I think that goes for His church as well. I think when you search to find the truth you will know when you find it, the truth will set you free.

Oh, if it's that easy we might as well trough away our Bible too? Maybe it's not even necessary to keep his commandments either?

No, I forgot, all you say is the one and only truth. :angel:
All others are making assumptions...

It is that simple. Loving each other, with a true love removes the need for the commandments. If you love your neighbor, will you lie to him? If you love your neighbor will you steal from him? If you love your neighbor will you covet her husband? Etc, etc.....

LA-girl · 10-28-2006, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyWest

It is that simple. Loving each other, with a true love removes the need for the commandments. If you love your neighbor, will you lie to him? If you love your neighbor will you steal from him? If you love your neighbor will you covet her husband? Etc, etc.....

First of all why would God abolish the ten commandments when they are all loving commandments? The first four speak about our love for God and the last six about our love for our neighbour. That is the reason why Jesus says the law can be summed up in those two great commandments; Love your God with all your heart....and love your neighbour as yourself. It does not mean we do not need the commandments anymore.

(Notice he says summed up, not replaced by!)

Jesus said:

"Do not think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I did not come to destroy, but to fulfill. (Matthew 5:17)

"One who says, I know him, and does not keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
(1 John, 2;4)

JimmyWest · 10-28-2006, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LA-girl

First of all why would God abolish the ten commandments when they are all loving commandments? The first four speak about our love for God and the last six about our love for our neighbour. That is the reason why Jesus says the law can be summed up in those two great commandments; Love your God with all your heart....and love your neighbour as yourself. It does not mean we do not need the commandments anymore.

(Notice he says summed up, not replaced by!)

Jesus said:

"Do not think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I did not come to destroy, but to fulfill. (Matthew 5:17)

"One who says, I know him, and does not keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
(1 John, 2;4)

WHO said anything about abolishing the commandments? I know I didn't. STOP changing what I say to what you think I mean.

LA-girl · 10-29-2006, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyWest

WHO said anything about abolishing the commandments? I know I didn't. STOP changing what I say to what you think I mean.

You said "...true love removes the need for the commandments" as a response to my question: "Maybe it's no longer necessary to keep the commandments either?"

I don't know, but to me it seemed obvious that you were saying that we do not need the commandments anymore.

And if we don't need them anymore, how are we supposed to know that for instance God wants us to keep His holy day which is the 4th commandment? How would we know that this is a way of expressing our love for Him?
We must know how to please God, how to show Him that we love Him. So I would say we are very much in need of the commandments, we need them just as much today as they are Gods universal laws. We will even continue to keep them in heaven.

As Jesus said: If ye love me, keep my commandments. (John 14:15)

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