Numbers 31 This view of God and love?

Alan McDougall · 03-28-2008, 12:59 PM

Numbers Chapture 31?

I have great difficulty in rationalizing this chapter with a concept of a good loving God as depictured by the lord Jesus Christ. Someone help me please! The bible states that God is the same, yesterday, tomorrow and forever.

This does not seem to be the case if one analyses and compares the awful chapter 31 of the book on Numbers, in relation to the loving, forgiving, Father God, that the Lord Jesus presented in the four gospels. Answer this and I will be able to press on. Note I do not have much time left. I am so tired and weary now!
Love
Alan McDougall 14/7/2007

1) Verse: 2 the Lord said to Moses take vengeance on the Midianites. In direct contrast, Jesus said, forgive those who hate you and despitefully use you. It is easy to love those that love you, but I say love those that hate you. Vengeance is mine said the lord I will recompense. However, here God appears to go against his own word and commands Moses to take vengeance.

2) Verses: 3- 6 Make war and kill said the lord. This is a direct contradiction to Gods own commandment. Thou shalt not kill. Jesus said if a man strikes you on the one cheek turn and offer him the other and not to violence.

3) Verses: 6-13 here the armies of Israel go out and destroy, spoil, burn and steal and plunder on Gods command. In addition, they slaughter all the adult males however; this is not sufficient bloodletting slaughter to please Moses or God as we read from verse 14.

In contrast, Jesus said he that lives by the sword would die by the sword. The soldiers apparently somewhat kinder and merciful than Moses spared the woman and children much to Mosses disappointment and anger

4) Verse: 14 Moses was wroth (angry) with the officers. Why? Because they had not slaughtered THE WHOLE LOT, WOMAN, CHILDREN, like they had done to the adult males.

So what is sweet kind merciful Moses proposal? Verse: 15, He says now murder all the “little boys”. In ABSOLUTE contrast Jesus said blessed are the little children for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

For goodness sake is this the same merciful loving God depicted by Jesus. No this horrific story does not end yet. Moses goes on saying.” Kill all the woman” except those that have not had "sex with a man". How on earth in those remote primitive days were the soldiers to know which woman was a virgin and which were not?.

There was definitely no gynecologist way back in 300O B.C. WERE THERE? So to me they must on Moses command raped all the woman first and then murdered those who were not virgins. Why was it necessary to rape them all? Because a woman’s age does not necessarily indicate whether a woman is a virgin or not.

5) Now if any learned rational bible scholar can tell me that this is the same father God that is the same yesterday tomorrow and forever, I am all eyes and ears waiting for a logical explanation. You know if one takes out the title God and Moses and replaces them with Hitler and Rudolf Hess, no one would question that it was the work of the evil Hitler regime. Would they?
6) Alan McDougall 13/7/2007

J. Damascene · 03-28-2008, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan McDougall

Numbers Chapture 31?

I have great difficulty in rationalizing this chapter with a concept of a good loving God as depictured by the lord Jesus Christ. Someone help me please! The bible states that God is the same, yesterday, tomorrow and forever.

This does not seem to be the case if one analyses and compares the awful chapter 31 of the book on Numbers, in relation to the loving, forgiving, Father God, that the Lord Jesus presented in the four gospels. Answer this and I will be able to press on. Note I do not have much time left. I am so tired and weary now!
Love
Alan McDougall 14/7/2007

1) Verse: 2 the Lord said to Moses take vengeance on the Midianites. In direct contrast, Jesus said, forgive those who hate you and despitefully use you. It is easy to love those that love you, but I say love those that hate you. Vengeance is mine said the lord I will recompense. However, here God appears to go against his own word and commands Moses to take vengeance.

2) Verses: 3- 6 Make war and kill said the lord. This is a direct contradiction to Gods own commandment. Thou shalt not kill. Jesus said if a man strikes you on the one cheek turn and offer him the other and not to violence.

3) Verses: 6-13 here the armies of Israel go out and destroy, spoil, burn and steal and plunder on Gods command. In addition, they slaughter all the adult males however; this is not sufficient bloodletting slaughter to please Moses or God as we read from verse 14.

In contrast, Jesus said he that lives by the sword would die by the sword. The soldiers apparently somewhat kinder and merciful than Moses spared the woman and children much to Mosses disappointment and anger

4) Verse: 14 Moses was wroth (angry) with the officers. Why? Because they had not slaughtered THE WHOLE LOT, WOMAN, CHILDREN, like they had done to the adult males.

So what is sweet kind merciful Moses proposal? Verse: 15, He says now murder all the “little boys”. In ABSOLUTE contrast Jesus said blessed are the little children for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

For goodness sake is this the same merciful loving God depicted by Jesus. No this horrific story does not end yet. Moses goes on saying.” Kill all the woman” except those that have not had "sex with a man". How on earth in those remote primitive days were the soldiers to know which woman was a virgin and which were not?.

There was definitely no gynecologist way back in 300O B.C. WERE THERE? So to me they must on Moses command raped all the woman first and then murdered those who were not virgins. Why was it necessary to rape them all? Because a woman’s age does not necessarily indicate whether a woman is a virgin or not.

5) Now if any learned rational bible scholar can tell me that this is the same father God that is the same yesterday tomorrow and forever, I am all eyes and ears waiting for a logical explanation. You know if one takes out the title God and Moses and replaces them with Hitler and Rudolf Hess, no one would question that it was the work of the evil Hitler regime. Would they?
6) Alan McDougall 13/7/2007

Generally, an unmarried young woman would have been a virgin. If a girl was still living in her father's household, then she would have been unmarried.

The reason the midianite women were killed is that they had been the ones who originally caused the Israelites to sin.

Jesus' words are supposed to contrast with the Old Testament. Jesus continually defies the common wisdom and demands behavior that seems irrational.

Boanerges · 03-28-2008, 02:26 PM

I can only say this- those who are not under grace are under the law and this is a harsh master indeed. IT would seem as though satan tried to stop God's promises (through Abraham and his seed) anyway he could and this was always met by judgment. We are all worthy of death and only those who find His grace will be spared. No I do not understand everything but God is slowly helping me along as He does with all who call on Christ.

adonaicole · 03-28-2008, 02:38 PM

God is true and just, his judgements are righteous. He doesn't contradict himself, he is not a man that he can lie.

Quote:

Vengeance is mine said the lord I will recompense.

His judgement is true and he often uses his servants to carry out the sentance.

The bible does not say, "Thou shalt not kill", that is a mistranslation of "Thou shalt not murder". If it did say, "Thou shalt not kill" then we would all have to be vegetarians, for "thou shalt not kill" is not human specific, "Thou shalt not murder" is.

God is faithful and true. Hitler murdered innocents, this God does not do. He loves all his children and it is out of this love that he provides righteous judgement.

J. Damascene · 03-28-2008, 02:39 PM

Perhaps if you repeated the question... I'm sorry, but I have trouble addressing long posts like that.

Alan McDougall · 03-28-2008, 04:48 PM

Your replies and my comments?

Generally, an unmarried young woman would have been a virgin. If a girl was still living in her father's household, then she would have been unmarried.(How the hek would plundering murdering Israelites take the time to note if each woman they had captured was still living with their father at the time of the invasion? also many elderly woman could have been virgins?)

The reason the midianite women were killed is that they had been the ones who originally caused the Israelites to sin. ( Ahh!!! You just gave me a way out blame someone else for my sins, and then ask god if I can murder/kill them)

The bible does not say, "Thou shalt not kill", that is a mistranslation of "Thou shalt not murder". If it did say, "Thou shalt not kill" then we would all have to be vegetarians, for "thou shalt not kill" is not human specific, "Thou shalt
not murder" is.

The bible translates as kill, but anyway your logic is that if you think God has told you to murder someone, it is ok

Nu 31:17
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

h'Via-l'k.w @'J;B r'k'z-l'k .Wg.rih h'T;[.w
.Wg{r]h r'k'z b;K.vim.l vyia t;[;d{

grhHarag (haw-rag'); Verb,

to kill, slay, murder, destroy, murderer, slayer, out of hand
1. (Qal)
  1. to kill, slay
  2. to destroy, ruin
2. (Niphal) to be killed
3. (Pual) to be killed, be slain

Please rethink your inadequate answers, there are uncomfortable things about the scriptures we must all face understand and reconcile
alan

smellycat · 03-28-2008, 04:58 PM

the bible has been a battle in words from the start,this running battle has happened throughout history and everybody is affected.the only conclusion i can think of is that evil has been at work.follow Jesus and count the times he talks about God,and then the Lord.read a Good version of the bible.WHO MADE MAN AND WOMEN,Jesus tells us God.so if the 2nd version of genesis was correct he would have said i made them.

Whirlwind · 03-28-2008, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan McDougall

Your replies and my comments?

Generally, an unmarried young woman would have been a virgin. If a girl was still living in her father's household, then she would have been unmarried.(How the hek would plundering murdering Israelites take the time to note if each woman they had captured was still living with their father at the time of the invasion? also many elderly woman could have been virgins?)

The reason the midianite women were killed is that they had been the ones who originally caused the Israelites to sin. ( Ahh!!! You just gave me a way out blame someone else for my sins, and then ask god if I can murder/kill them)

The bible does not say, "Thou shalt not kill", that is a mistranslation of "Thou shalt not murder". If it did say, "Thou shalt not kill" then we would all have to be vegetarians, for "thou shalt not kill" is not human specific, "Thou shalt
not murder" is.

The bible translates as kill, but anyway your logic is that if you think God has told you to murder someone, it is ok

Nu 31:17
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

h'Via-l'k.w @'J;B r'k'z-l'k .Wg.rih h'T;[.w

.Wg{r]h r'k'z b;K.vim.l vyia t;[;d{

grhHarag (haw-rag'); Verb,

to kill, slay, murder, destroy, murderer, slayer, out of hand
1. (Qal)
  1. to kill, slay
  2. to destroy, ruin
2. (Niphal) to be killed
3. (Pual) to be killed, be slain

Please rethink your inadequate answers, there are uncomfortable things about the scriptures we must all face understand and reconcile
alan

Alan: Please be kind in your answers with your brothers and sisters in Christ. When someone doesn't agree with you, it doesn't necessarily mean that their response is an inadequate answer; or that your perception is the final authority.

We are, all of us, on a journey to find the truth. None of us has attained perfect knowledge...yet.

Everybody has the right to an opinion.

Thank you kindly, Sir.

smellycat · 03-28-2008, 05:46 PM

alan the real truth will provail keep searching.

J. Damascene · 03-28-2008, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan McDougall

Generally, an unmarried young woman would have been a virgin. If a girl was still living in her father's household, then she would have been unmarried.(How the hek would plundering murdering Israelites take the time to note if each woman they had captured was still living with their father at the time of the invasion? also many elderly woman could have been virgins?)

The reason the midianite women were killed is that they had been the ones who originally caused the Israelites to sin. ( Ahh!!! You just gave me a way out blame someone else for my sins, and then ask god if I can murder/kill them)

The reason the virgins were kept alive- well, surely you can discern that simply by reading the text! They wouldn't want elderly virgins, even if they existed.

Indeed, the Israelites sinned, and they suffered their own punishment prior to this.

If God commands it, is it a sin?

03-28-2008, 12:59 PM	#1 (permalink)
Alan McDougall Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Gauteng Posts: 51 Rep Power: 1	Numbers 31 This view of God and love? *Numbers Chapture 31?* I have great difficulty in rationalizing this chapter with a concept of a good loving God as depictured by the lord Jesus Christ. Someone help me please! The bible states that God is the same, yesterday, tomorrow and forever. This does not seem to be the case if one analyses and compares the awful chapter 31 of the book on Numbers, in relation to the loving, forgiving, Father God, that the Lord Jesus presented in the four gospels. Answer this and I will be able to press on. Note I do not have much time left. I am so tired and weary now! *Love* *Alan McDougall* *14/7/2007* 1) *Verse: 2 the Lord said to* *Moses* take vengeance on the Midianites. In direct contrast, Jesus said, forgive those who hate you and despitefully use you. It is easy to love those that love you, but I say love those that hate you. Vengeance is mine said the lord I will recompense. However, here God appears to go against his own word and commands Moses to take vengeance. 2) Verses: 3- 6 Make war and kill said the lord. This is a direct contradiction to Gods own commandment. Thou shalt not kill. Jesus said if a man strikes you on the one cheek turn and offer him the other and not to violence. 3) *Verses: 6-13 here the armies of* *Israel* go out and destroy, spoil, burn and steal and plunder on Gods command. In addition, they slaughter all the adult males however; this is not sufficient bloodletting slaughter to please Moses or God as we read from verse 14. In contrast, Jesus said he that lives by the sword would die by the sword. The soldiers apparently somewhat kinder and merciful than Moses spared the woman and children much to Mosses disappointment and anger 4) *Verse: 14 Moses was wroth (angry) with the officers. Why? Because they had not slaughtered THE WHOLE* *LOT, WOMAN, CHILDREN, like they had done to the adult males.* So what is sweet kind merciful Moses proposal? Verse: 15, He says now murder all the “little boys”. In ABSOLUTE contrast Jesus said blessed are the little children for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. For goodness sake is this the same merciful loving God depicted by Jesus. No this horrific story does not end yet. Moses goes on saying.” Kill all the woman” except those that have not had "sex with a man". How on earth in those remote primitive days were the soldiers to know which woman was a virgin and which were not?. There was definitely no gynecologist way back in 300O B.C. WERE THERE? So to me they must on Moses command raped all the woman first and then murdered those who were not virgins. Why was it necessary to rape them all? Because a woman’s age does not necessarily indicate whether a woman is a virgin or not. 5) Now if any learned rational bible scholar can tell me that this is the same father God that is the same yesterday tomorrow and forever, I am all eyes and ears waiting for a logical explanation. You know if one takes out the title God and Moses and replaces them with Hitler and Rudolf Hess, no one would question that it was the work of the evil Hitler regime. Would they? 6) Alan McDougall 13/7/2007** __________________ Beloved Christian Brethren How Much We Must Love Each other.

03-28-2008, 02:26 PM	#3 (permalink)
Boanerges Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: St Rose LA Posts: 14,631 Blog Entries: 3 Rep Power: 16	I can only say this- those who are not under grace are under the law and this is a harsh master indeed. IT would seem as though satan tried to stop God's promises (through Abraham and his seed) anyway he could and this was always met by judgment. We are all worthy of death and only those who find His grace will be spared. No I do not understand everything but God is slowly helping me along as He does with all who call on Christ. __________________ Love, in the final analysis, is wisdom. --E.W. Kenyon

03-28-2008, 04:48 PM	#6 (permalink)
Alan McDougall Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Gauteng Posts: 51 Rep Power: 1	Numbers 31 Your replies and my comments? Generally, an unmarried young woman would have been a virgin. If a girl was still living in her father's household, then she would have been unmarried.(How the hek would plundering murdering Israelites take the time to note if each woman they had captured was still living with their father at the time of the invasion? also many elderly woman could have been virgins?) The reason the midianite women were killed is that they had been the ones who originally caused the Israelites to sin. ( Ahh!!! You just gave me a way out blame someone else for my sins, and then ask god if I can murder/kill them) The bible does not say, "Thou shalt not kill", that is a mistranslation of "Thou shalt not murder". If it did say, "Thou shalt not kill" then we would all have to be vegetarians, for "thou shalt not kill" is not human specific, "Thou shalt not murder" is. The bible translates as kill, but anyway your logic is that if you think God has told you to murder someone, it is ok Nu 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. h'Via-l'k.w @'J;B r'k'z-l'k .Wg.rih h'T;[.w .Wg{r]h r'k'z b;K.vim.l vyia t;[;d{ grh*Harag* (haw-rag'); Verb, to kill, slay, murder, destroy, murderer, slayer, out of hand (Qal) to kill, slay to destroy, ruin (Niphal) to be killed (Pual) to be killed, be slain Please rethink your inadequate answers, there are uncomfortable things about the scriptures we must all face understand and reconcile alan __________________ Beloved Christian Brethren How Much We Must Love Each other.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

03-28-2008, 02:39 PM	#5 (permalink)
J. Damascene Former Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Illinois Posts: 288 Rep Power: 0	Perhaps if you repeated the question... I'm sorry, but I have trouble addressing long posts like that.

03-28-2008, 04:58 PM	#7 (permalink)
smellycat Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: uk Posts: 4,820 Rep Power: 6	the bible has been a battle in words from the start,this running battle has happened throughout history and everybody is affected.the only conclusion i can think of is that evil has been at work.follow Jesus and count the times he talks about God,and then the Lord.read a Good version of the bible.WHO MADE MAN AND WOMEN,Jesus tells us God.so if the 2nd version of genesis was correct he would have said i made them.

03-28-2008, 05:46 PM	#9 (permalink)
smellycat Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: uk Posts: 4,820 Rep Power: 6	alan the real truth will provail keep searching.