shawnmann

Hello Brothers and Sisters in Christ! I'd like to have a loving conversation about the Bible. If you want to argue, please don't. If you want to have a uplifting conversation between believers, please feel free to express your thoughts, even if you disagree.

Let me just say that i DO believe in eternal security. I believe that those who abide in Christ as described in 1 John have eternal security. I do not think eternal security is extended to those who turn their back on the sanctified life that they were born into when they accepted Christ, showing by their life styles that they do not have faith in the full work of Christ, which is our status as a new creation, no longer bound to sin.

At least three times in the New Testiment it is made clear that we can be removed from Christ. The first place is John 15. When speaking about those who belong to Christ, Jesus says: "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away". So it is clear that those branches who are in Christ can be removed. And verse five makes it clear that we are the brances. Now, what happens to us, who belong to Christ, if we don't abide in Him? "he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned".

The word here translated as "burned" is the same word used in Revelation 19:20 and 21:8 "And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur." and "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." John 15 is not talking about our works being burned but us: "you are the branches".

Paul warned his readers several times about those who live these lifestyles; "do not be decieved, those who do such things will have no place in the Kingdom of God". That man who had sex with his mother (in law?) still had a chance to repent and be saved, but you be sure that if he continued in his sexual immorality that he would have no part in the kingdom of God. Please answer me on this. Do you believe this to be true? That if someone makes a habbit of sexual immorality that they will be excluded from the kingdom? Even the man from Corinthians 5?

John 15 showed us that those who are in Christ can be removed from him. We see this again in Romans 11:22: "Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off." The Jews were cut off because of their unbelief. But Paul is clear that we too will be cut off if we do not "continue in his kindness". It is perfectly clear that after we have been grafted in through faith in Christ that we can be removed.

Once again we see that we can be removed from Christ:
Galatians 5:4
"You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace."
"Severed from Christ" means that at one they were a part of Christ.

Still not convinced that we can loose our position? Let me ask you this, who can get kicked off of a baseball team, those who are members of it, or those who never joined? Of course it is only those who have something who can loose it. I can only loose an apple if i've got one in the first place. With this in mind, read Revelation 22:19: "and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book." The KJV even says that their part can be taken out of the book of life! We can loose our part from the things of heaven!

It is perfectly clear, in light of these scriptures, that a believer can loose their position in Christ.

Eternal life is eternal, but we must abide in it if we want to take part in it. Let me ask you this, was God a liar becuase so many Israelites never made it to the promised land? Or when other Israelites did not inherit the promises of God, was God the liar? Of course not! It is a covenant! They broke it, not God. We are also under a covenant. If we do not abide in Christ we will forfit the promise of eternal life that is promised to those who walk in the light. If we walk in darkness, and say we walk in the light, we are liars and have no fellowship with God.

Do you agree with these scriptures that we can be removed from Christ?

If you feel like you have wandered away from God, and you feel bad about your sins, i believe you still have a chance to repent and enjoy the love and forgiveness of God. Please take this time right now to confess your sins to God, and ask Him to lead you with his Holy Spirit so that you would not return to your sins.

1 John 2:1
"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 3And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments."

violet

Theophilus

I believe that those who are truely in Christ and HE in them will never be separated. Those who are not will be separated.

Please bare with me for some clarification of scripture in that it needs to be placed in context.

Jesus says: "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away".

When Jesus spoke these words He was speaking to the Jews. The Jews were already the branches (how ever at this time the gentiles were not). What Jesus was saying to them is simply that they cannot depend on their heritege or position in the religous order to assure salvation. (something though not directed to us as gentiles is something that the religous order today should never loose sight of)

However as gentiles we upon the unfruitful Jews being cut from the vine were grafted to it.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
The Jews were the first born. We, the Gentiles, are in essence adopted in place of the Jews who choose to reliquish their birth right.
This scenario is repeated several times in scripture in differant accounts and parables.

Here the Apostile Paul is talking to the gentiles. While he is addressing the issue of separation between the Jews and gentiles the point is still made.
Whether natural or grafted those who do not bare fruit are dead and will be removed. Meaning?

One can be attached to the vine and still not be saved if one is attached to the vine but not taking nurishment from it and therefore does not to bare fruit of it.


Where does that leave us????
We are not saved because we bare fruit ,but we bare fruit because we are saved.
Our father in heaven is the vine dresser. He and He alone can
graft and remove branches. Every one can be grafted to the vine and every one can be cut and burned. So, the question is not can we be grafted or removed but will we.

Joh 5:6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?



Your answer???



Sincerely
in Him
Cliff

Boanerges

If you truly belive in Jesus Christ as your saviour and truly accept Him into your life and heart you will not fall away- you may stumble but you will not fall away-

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Housesitter

I agree with you. I am reminded of a preacher who told about the building of the ark. Towards the end of his version God said
On the outside of the ark I want you to knock in some large nails.
Then close the doors to the ark with yourself outside.
Hang on to the nails.
He who hangs on will be saved.
No God puts us IN the ark under His protection, He shut the door. It is His grace not my hanging on that saves.

But sadly I believe many who claim to be believers will not be there because, as Boanerges quoted, they were not of us for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

__________________
Ray
Enjoy a rent free holiday with
Christian House Sitters
www.christian-housesitters.com

Boanerges

Please excuse the cut and paste but I have company and have to sign off for a while:

We have the great priviledge of having the righteousnes of Christ imparted to us and by faith we know that we will stand in His provision not our bumbling steps- Hallelujah
He took my sin , He knew my failures at yet He still choose to save me-

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Php 1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
Php 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
Php 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith

It is an awesome thing to be found in Christ and God's judgements on our life are to be embraced as they are His way of setting us free to walk closer to Him- Hallelujah! It is not condemnation but liberty we find in that loving hand.
So it is by faith in Christ and Christ alone we find salvation, peace and joy- if we find a lack in any of these our eyes are indeed on the wrong things!
Hallelujah- His grace and love are overwhelming , His hand of deliverance sure and His mercy towards all in Christ unending- Halleluajh! What can seperate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord- only ourselves- we cast down all vain imaginings, doubt and unbelief must go in the Name of Jesus for our hearts are now fixed upon the King- may we each learn to enter into His rest- your brother Larry

shawnmann

Did you read the verses I quoted? They clearly show that it is Christians who are being removed from Christ!

shawnmann

So you disagree with how clearly these scriptures show that Christians can be removed from Christ because of some illustration a preacher taught you? This is very troublesome! I'm not trying to be harsh, i'm only showing these verses because I love my brothers and sisters in Christ and I don't want anyone to be decieved ( 1 Corinthians 6:9 ). Do people commit to a theology without first prayerfully reading the scriptures to see if it is true? I grew up accepting "once saved always saved". A careful study of the scriptures changed my view.

In Revelation 22:19, where it clearly shows that someone who has a part in the things of heaven can have their place revoked, what does that mean to you?

In Second Peter 2:20, where it shows that someone who has become a Christian (the only way to escape the defilements of the world; through Christ), if they return to sin and let it master them, their last state is worse than their first!! How can this be!? They accepted Christ! Hebrews 6 makes it clear!

Hebrews 6 describes the qualities of a Christian! They have fallen away and their end is to be burned! That is what the Bible teaches! Thats what the verse says! How can we ignore these scriptures?

Boanerges

Of course I read them - why else would I have bothered to respond?


1John 2:19 clearly talks abot people who called on the Name of Christ, were involved in the local church and had all the attributes you would think of as christians (at least on the surface). They certainly were available to see God move and were at least drawn to be there for whatever reasons they had been up close and personal with God and His people but never really loved Him or wanted to be with Him- these are the kind like Judas who walk with Christ for gain, or like
Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world- they were indeed comiing to Christ ofr what they could get- God never accepts the right action with the wrong motive and time is an excelent judge of what a man really wants- sooner or later he will persue that which his heart really desires.

Boanerges

1Jn 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1Jn 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

1Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

I am promosed eternal life and I may know that I have eternal life- I have nothing to fear as none who love Jesus do!