shawnmann

How can you possibly have this view in light of these scriptures? In John 15 Christ said that those who are in him can be removed. You don't think Christ ment what he said when he said this? If we throw out this verse because when he said it he was talking with Jews, then we have to throw out almost everything he said and say it doesnt apply to us.

Romans 11:22 clearly shows that gentiles can be removed! "provided you continue in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off"

What about Galatians 5:4?
"You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace."

This clearly shows that it is possible for those who once belonged to Christ, to be removed from him!

PLEASE DON'T IGNORE THESE SCRIPTURES! REV 22:19 CLEARLY SHOWS THAT THOSE WHO HAVE A PLACE IN HEAVEN CAN HAVE THEIR PLACE REVOKED!

shawnmann

John 2:19 is a good verse but not really on topic in this case. We are talking about verses that clearly show that those who are Christians (not just on the surface) can be removed from Christ. John 15, Romans 11, Hebrews 6 and 10, Revelation 22:19, and more show that REAL Christians can be removed from Christ.

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violet

Originally Posted by Boanerges
Of course I read them - why else would I have bothered to respond? 1John 2:19 clearly talks abot people who called on the Name of Christ, were involved in the local church and had all the attributes you would think of as christians (at least on the surface). They certainly were available to see God move and were at least drawn to be there for whatever reasons they had been up close and personal with God and His people but never really loved Him or wanted to be with Him- these are the kind like Judas who walk with Christ for gain, or like Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world- they were indeed comiing to Christ ofr what they could get- God never accepts the right action with the wrong motive and time is an excelent judge of what a man really wants- sooner or later he will persue that which his heart really desires.

A brother in Christ

You are dealing with present tense salvation .. where we as Christians do get to use free will to use eternal life... God's kind of life or be a slave to our sin nature john 8:32,34, 1 cor 7:20-24, 1 john 5:11-14 1 cor 3:12-15 has burning yet still saved romans 13:11-14 has saved believer sleeping in their christian life and doing sin but still saved

they are asking for heb 12:3-11, 1 cor 11:30-32 once a child of God always the threat is if you continue God will take you out physcally .. other wise God would not keeping his word was King David who commit adultry and murdered kept out... romans 4:6-8 .... matt 18:12 sheep may run away but God never leaves or forsake you

We do forsake him BUT GOD IS FAITHFUL Like the sheep when running away we are out of God's mercy ... we are not under law when sinning we sow what we reap ... God did not want that to happen if salvation was works then it would be man based ..titus 3:5,2 tim 1:9, romans 4:2-6, eph 2:4-9, heb 4:3,9-10

since our salvation is based on God's works john 6:29 true... Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

has God not died for all sin past, presence and future
and if you do sin

heb 10:19 having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus.

We are saved by grace eph 2:8 , we grow by grace 2 peter 3:18, and we are judged by grace 1 thes 4:16-17,1 cor 15:51-52

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Theophilus

Because this scripture is not alking about "eternal" salvation.
Because I don't believe that we are "saved" until we have completed the journey.

Salvation is not a one time event. There is no justification for "once saved always saved" this side of heaven.

Salvation is a process, a jounrny, a walk. and we often get lost along the way even with the Holy Spirit's guidence. It is not that we are or can be perfect ,because we can't. And it is more than whan just making the trip. It is about what we learn along the way and what we do with it now and what we will be doing with it once we get there.
Many will for various reasons either not start or not finish the trip.
But like a bus ride to a destination that we have never been before, We all will get off from time to time.
Scripture tells us that while we can get back on that bus/path (by the grace of God) to salvation ,while we are off of it we are on our own and there is eternal danger in that.

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

Surely as we can be cut off from Christ, we can be regrafted be it the will of God to do so. That is of His grace and mercy and not by own doings.

Getting cut from the vine does not equate to lost salvation to the extent that it can never be regained. If that were true our first spot /sin/ transgression, or short coming after being grafted would cost us our salvation. There for none would be saved my freind.

Sincerely
His
Cliff

violet

shawnmann

Hebrews 6 makes it clear that the one who has fallen away can not be brought back to repentance. They will not be grafted back in.

Theophilus

NO!!! it doesn't!!

It says that those who deliberetly and publicly reject and/or rebel (public humiliation of Christ)against God though they have been accepted by him wil be rejected and can never be reconciled. That is a monumental differance, brother.
Don't go making it into something it isn't.

Paul did not set a presedent nor did he establish doctrine any where in his writings. He was imparting wisdom, giving clarification and guidence to those with whom he communicated.
As I said before ,there is eternal danger in falling away from Christ. This does say that one can be lost even though in Christ but for willful and specific actions and not common failure to abide in him, error or temporary unbelief.

It is my belief that those who are tuely in Christ and He in them will not publicly express doubt or rebel against Him, therefore not in danger of losing their salvation.

Sincerely His
Cliff

Boanerges

I am enjoying salvation now- salvation = deliverance, fellowship with God, abiding in the vine and a host of other wonderous things. I will never be seperated from my Jesus- God's Word clearly demonstrates that nothing (other than ourselves) can seperate us from Christ Jesus our Lord and I am not ever going to let go-