LA-girl

Can you please explain to me:
* Why would God give the Jews an earthly literal temple right before Jesus comes back?
* Why would the Jews need a literal temple when the temple was used to sacrifice animals before Jesus died on the cross to be the sacrificed lamb for everybody??

After Jesus died on the cross the veil tore apart as a sign that there was no longer need for a physical temple for anyone, because we are now the living temple of God and Jesus is our lamb.

"..for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." (2.Cor,6..)
John the Baptist referred to Jesus as the “Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29)

And after Jesus comes back the whole world will be in ruins and everybody but the rightouss are dead, so
* Why should Jesus leave the Jews in a physical temple here on earth for 1000 years when all other christians are safe with Jesus in heaven??

That wouldn't be fair either, I hope that is not true for the sake of the Jews...

JohnMark

LA-girl,

In which of my posts in this thread did I use the word temple?

Grace and peace,
JohnMark

__________________

"And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week,
and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate,
until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."
Daniel 9:27 English Standard Version

LA-girl

JohnMark wrote:Ok, so if it is not a rebuilding of a new temple (which most christians are emphacizing), what earthly promise are you talking about?
That all the Jews will be saved?

Btw do you dismiss the theory that the (literal) Jews will have their earthly, physical temple rebuilt?

JohnMark

LA-girl,

What earthly promise(s) to Israel am I talking about?

'After the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) God will restore Israel to the primary focus of His plan. The first event at this time is the Great Tribulation (Revelation chapters 6-19). The world will be judged for rejecting Christ, while Israel is prepared through the trials of the Great Tribulation for the Second Coming of the Messiah. Now, when Christ does return to the earth, at the end of the Tribulation, ...[He] will establish His kingdom on this earth with the capital at Jerusalem. With Christ reigning as King, Israel will be the leading nation and representatives from all nations will come to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King. The Church will return with Christ and will reign with Him for a literal thousand years (Revelation 20:1-5).

'Both the Old Testament and the New Testament support a Premillennial...understanding of God's plan for humanity. Even so, the strongest support for Premillennialism is found in the clear teaching of Revelation 20:1-7, where it says, six times, that Christ's kingdom will last 1,000 years. After the Tribulation the Lord will return and establish His kingdom with the nation of Israel, Christ will reign over the whole earth with Jerusalem as His capital and Israel will be the leader of the nations. The Church will reign with Him for a literal thousand years...'

To read more go to:
www.gotquestions.org/replacement-theology.html

As for your other questions, in general I choose not to participate in long, drawn-out, detailed debates. In particular, I do not care to participate in such a debate over the meaning of the temple or of Romans 11:26 ("And so all Israel shall be saved"). The Bible teaching regarding God's keeping His promises to Israel does not stand or fall on the meaning of the temple or the interpretation of Romans 11:26.

Grace and peace,
JohnMark

__________________

"And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week,
and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate,
until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."
Daniel 9:27 English Standard Version

LA-girl

In other words you are supporting the SECRET RAPTURE, Left behind theory where christians are being caught up secretly to heaven while life on earth continues for several years (7) after?

Btw did you it was a jesuit priest who invented this theory?

I would advise everyone to take a look at the following quote, also by Doug Batchelor.

Not a Secret
Will there be a rapture? Yes. Will it be a secret? NO! Rapture means "to be carried away with power," and it is true that when Jesus comes we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). But many have come to believe that this rapture will take place quietly-that faithful Christians all around the world will suddenly disappear and that life here on earth will continue for a seven-year period of tribulation. During this time, they say, many will be converted and have a "second chance" at salvation before Christ's final coming.

Although the secret rapture scenario may appear comforting at first glance, there is absolutely no scriptural support for it. The Bible plainly teaches that when Jesus comes again, every one of our senses will be bombarded with evidence!

His Coming Will Be Literal
"And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." Acts 1:9-11.

Heaven-sent messengers told the disciples that Jesus would return to this earth in the same manner He left. Christ left in the clouds, and He will come back in the clouds. He was visible when He left, and He will be visible when He comes again. He had a real body when He left, and He will return the same way.

His Coming Will Be Visible"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him." Revelation 1:7.

"For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Matthew 24:27.

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Matthew 24:30.

When Christ comes, it will not be merely a local sighting or an isolated event. It will be visible across the entire world.

His Coming Will Be Audible
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17.

"The Lord shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout." Jeremiah 25:30.

"Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him." Psalm 50:3.

Christ's second coming will be loud! There will be shouts and trumpets and all kinds of noise. No one will accidentally miss it or be able to read about it in the newspaper the next day.

His Coming Will Be Emotional
"Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." Luke 21:26, 27.

"And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the Lord; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation." Isaiah 25:9.

When Christ returns, it will be an emotional day for the wicked and righteous alike. The lost will experience indescribable fear and anguish, while the saved will experience the perfect joy of eternal salvation.

His Coming Will Open the Graves
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:40.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." 1 Corinthians 15:22, 23.

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17.

This is the Bible's description of the rapture. The dead in Christ will rise by His power and will meet Him in the air. Afterward the faithful who are still alive will also be caught up. It will not be a secret!

His Coming Will Destroy the Earth
"The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again." Isaiah 24:19, 20.

"And the heaven [sky] departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places." Revelation 6:14.

"And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found." Revelation 16:18-20.

This world will be uninhabitable by people after Christ comes. His coming will shake the very foundations of the earth.

His Coming Will Mean Final Judgment
"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." Matthew 16:27.

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12.

It is at Christ's return that we will receive our final reward. Each person's decision will have already been made; there will be no second chance to convert. The time to make a decision to follow Christ is now!

Basis for Confusion
With so much evidence in the Bible as to the manner of Christ's coming, where do people get the idea that the rapture will be a secret event?

As with most deceptions, the secret rapture theory is based on a few texts which have been taken out of context. There are two main concepts in Scripture that have been used to substantiate a "secret" rapture.

The primary one is that Jesus will come as "a thief in the night." The secret rapture theory assumes this means that Christ will come secretly to steal away the righteous and carry them quietly to heaven.

Christ's coming is described as "a thief" several times throughout the New Testament. Let's look at one of these passages and see if it describes a secret rapture. "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." 2 Peter 3:10. That doesn't sound like a secret event to me!

In describing His return as a thief, Christ did not intend to show that it would be quiet, but that it would be sudden and unexpected-that the wicked would be taken by surprise. He said, "If the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not." Luke 12:39, 40. Likewise, Paul told the Christians in Thessalonica, "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." 1 Thessalonians 5:4. God does not want His followers to be surprised. He wants us to be watchful and ready.

(Other scriptures used by pre-trib supporters: read the article)

The Bible is very clear that when Jesus comes back, His feet never touch the ground. It says the righteous will be caught up to meet Him in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). This is why Jesus emphatically warns us, "Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." Matthew 24:26, 27, NKJV.

Satan cannot replicate a worldwide, cataclysmic event the magnitude of the real second coming. But if he can seduce Christians into believing the secret rapture theory, he won't have to. He can simply show up around the world in various places, perform great miracles, make TV appearances, and thereby deceive the entire world.

The whole article:
ANYTHING BUT SECRET
http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/Read_Media.asp?ID=466

LA-girl

Now I believe that is what you call the secret rapture where christians are suddenly and silently raptured up into heaven? Now look at those verse a little closer:

1 Tess 4:16-17
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Now that does not at all sound like a SILENT/SECRET rapture to me....

JohnMark

LA-girl:

Are both of us participating in the same discussion? Are both of us talking about the same thing? I have no idea how what you said has anything to do with what I said.

In a debate (or discussion), it is useful if you respond to the points the other side makes. I don't have time for replies that totally ignore the points I've attempted to make.

I am truly sorry, but this is the last time I will reply to you in this thread. In replying to my posts you repeatedly tell me what I am saying, which usually turns out to be something that I did not say and, in some cases, you include words or whole phrases I never even used. We cannot continue to dialogue as long as you keep doing this. "Secret rapture." Now where in my previous post do you see the WORDS "secret rapture"?

If you want to know what I believe about the rapture, all you have to do is ask me. I'd be happy to tell you. You needn't speculate about what I believe. Moreover, what I believe about the rapture or the temple has little if any relevance to the main issue, which is: Has Israel been forever set aside?

If you don't care to reply to the points that I bring up in my posts, then I see no reason to continue to reply to you.

I say this with no ill will toward you. It's just that I think it best to end our discussion. No hard feelings.

Grace and peace,
JohnMark

__________________

"And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week,
and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate,
until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."
Daniel 9:27 English Standard Version

LA-girl

JohnMark:

If you take a closer look at my post :
You will see it was a question, not a claim...
So what is your theory about the rapture?
I just want to get to the bottom of this and I believe discussions like these are an excellent way to find out the real Bible-truth.
But if you would like to end the discussion I would have to respect that of course.

You wrote:

To me it seems like at least you believe there is a rapture prior to Jesus second coming. So in other words this supports the pre-trib theory right?

I believe the Bible teach that the rapture occurs not prior to, but when Jesus return (first the rightouss dead and then the rightouss living). After that God will destroy every living creature and all the human works (buildings) and the earth will be left desolate for a thousand years while all the saints will be in heaven, in the city that Jesus has prepared for us during the 1000 years where all the rightouss will be a part of judging the lost. That means we will be able to see why the lost are lost so that we will trust that God is making a just judgement. After the 1000 years the new city will ascend down from heaven to this earth where the Final judgement will take place. After everybody is given their just punishment, everybody (lost) will in the end be burnt up completely and only ashes will be left. When all sinners and sin is completely removed from this universe it is time for God to create the new earth. It will still be this earth, but this earth made new and perfect!