Jasher

Dear CF - This is part one

I guess the other thread on women that was closed brought this to mind. Being a newcomer I didn't get a chance to post there. I wanted to because I have new information for you to consider. This post is just a preface to the subject in order to establish the historical problem of the supression of women.

A former pastor once said, "Rather than look at how far people need to go, look back to see how far they have already come." Here are some quotations for us to ponder as we take that look backward in time.

Here is a sampling of the common male attitude toward women over the millennia.

"Whoever teaches his daughter the Torah is like one
who teaches her obscenity. Rather should the words of the
Torah be burned than entrusted to a woman."
Ancient Rabbi

"It is a shame for a woman to let her voice be heard among men."
Ancient Rabbi

"The woman is in all things inferior to the man. Let her be
accordingly submissive."
Josephus - Historian

"All females, both animal and human, are inferior
to males. We should look upon the female as a
deformity in nature."
Aristotle - Philosopher

"Woman is defective and misbegotten. For
the active power in the male seed produces
a perfect male likeness. A female comes from a
defect in the male seed or from some indisposition
such as the south wind being too moist."
Thomas Aquinas - Church father

"God's sentence hangs over the female sex,
and His punishment weighs down upon you.
You are the devil's gateway. You first violated
the forbidden tree and broke God's law. You
shattered God's image in man, and because
you merited death, you had to die."
Tertullian - Church Father

"It brings man shame even to reflect on
woman's nature. By no means shall
women exhibit any part of their person
lest men become excited and look and fall."
Clement - Church Father

"It is part of her punishment and a part
from which even God's mercy will
not exempt her. Subjection to the will of her
husband is part of her curse."
Clement - Church Father

"Take women from their housewifery and they
are good for nothing."
Martin Luther

"Women have narrow shoulders and broad hips
to sit upon, so they ought to stay home,
keep the house, bear and raise children. The
woman differs from the man; she is weaker in
body, in honor, in intellect and in dignity."
Martin Luther

"If a woman take upon her any office which
God assigned to man, she shall not escape being
cursed. Women are weak, they are frail, they are
impatient and feeble and foolish. They are
inconstant. They are changeable, they are cruel.
They lack spirit and counsel. Woman in her
greatest perfection was made to serve and
only obey men."
John Knox

"One hundred women are not worth a single
testicle." Confucius (551-479 BCE)

"The five worst infirmities that afflict the female are indocility,
discontent, slander, jealousy, and silliness... Such is the
stupidity of woman's character, that it is incumbent upon her,
in every particular, to distrust herself and to obey her husband."
The Confucian Marriage Manual

"A proper wife should be as obedient as a slave."
and "The female is a female by virtue of a certain
lack of qualities - a natural defectiveness."
Aristotle (384-322 BCE)

"In childhood a woman must be subject to her father; in youth
to her husband; when her husband is dead,
to her sons. A woman must never be free of subjugation."
The Hindu Code of Manu (c. 100 CE)

"Among all savage beasts, none is found so harmful as woman."
St. John Chrysostom (345-407 CE)

"Men are superior to women."
The Koran (c. 650)

"Any woman who acts in such a way that she cannot give
birth to as many children as she is capable of, makes herself
guilty of that many murders."
St. Augustine (354-430 CE)

"Do you know that each of your women is an Eve?
The sentence of God - on this sex of yours - lives
in this age;
the guilt must necessarily live, too. You are the gate of
Hell, you are
the temptress of the forbidden tree; you are the first deserter of the
divine law."
Tertullian in 22 CE

"Woman in her greatest perfection was made to
serve and obey man, not rule and command him."
John Knox (1505-1572)

"The souls of women are so small that some
believe they've none at all."
Samuel Butler (1612-1680)

"What a misfortune to be a woman! And yet,
the worst misfortune is not to understand
what a misfortune it is".
Kierkegaard (1813-1855)

"Let us set our women folk on the road to goodness
by teaching them to display submissiveness." "Every
woman should be overwhelmed with shame at the thought
that she is a woman."
St. Clement of Alexandria in 96 CE

In the year 584 CE, in Lyons, France, forty-three
Catholic bishops and twenty men representing other bishops,
held a most peculiar debate: "Are Women Human?" After many
lengthy arguments, a vote was taken. The results were:
thirty-two, yes; thirty-one, no. Women were declared human by one vote!
Council of Macon

"Blessed art thou, O Lord our God and King of the
Universe, that thou didst not create me a woman."
Daily prayer, still in use, of the orthodox Jewish male

"Woman should remain at home, sit still, keep house, and
bear and bring up children."
and "If a woman grows weary and, at last, dies from child bearing,
it matters not. Let her die from bearing; she is there to do it."
Martin Luther (1483-1546)

End of Part One

Dusty

Jasher..... You know, as a woman, you are opening up a big can of worms here.!!! LOL.

How times have changed...... Woo ---hoo !!!!

My favourite The souls of women are so small that some
believe they've none at all."
Samuel Butler (1612-1680)

Hello ????

__________________

Trials prove a Christian

Love confirms a Christian

But death crowns a Christian

Jasher

Well, this has been one of my pet peeves over the years and I have been through it many times. So I have a lot of thick scar tissue from past fights. It's usually the conservatives and legalists that beat up on me. This is the group who tend to take the Bible hyper literally. My problem is that the Spirit that is inside of me says that literal interpretation does not always ring true. So then you look for a historical context that does seem to ring true.

Lauren

Jasher

Part Two

With this kind of really negative attitude (expressed in part one) among the male population over the Millennia Is it really difficult to believe that the historical record of women's participation in the leadership of the Church has mostly been expunged from history by the "Selective memory," of the male scribes of that day?

Jesus and Paul lived in a culture of male domination. This practice followed into the Church after Pentecost although some women were leaders in the synagogues in that day. A lot of Christian women were poor, but some were also wealthy: like Lydia. Women were managing their own households, which often had a lot going on like maintenance of property, running a business, managing a family along with its many responsibilities and supervision of slaves in some cases. The early Church was basically run by women as they simply extended their homes in order to host the Church, which met in homes during the first and second centuries.

During the third and forth centuries as the church slowly became institutionalized, the women were displaced and the leadership became masculine dominated. There were women in leadership before the purge took place. The best example extant is Junia mentioned by St. Paul as an Apostle. Translators “Corrected� the female name to that of Junias - the male form. There is no historical male name “Junias.“ The evidence of early Female leadership remains mostly in the fraises, mosaics, and grave markings in places like the catacombs.

Another example: There is a mosaic in a Basilica that depicts four women, Mary the mother of Jesus, Prudentiana, Praxedis, and a forth woman whose name was Theodora Episcopa - Bishop Theodora. Episcopus is the male form and episcopa is the female. It is also noteworthy that the ending letter of the word episcopa in the mosaic was partially defaced - I wonder why? As a side note, the image of Theodora had a square halo instead of a round one like the other three women, which symbolically indicated that she was still alive when the mosaic was made.

If there was one women Apostle - and not just an apostle but an outstanding one - why couldn't there have been many more? No womens contribution to leadership in the ancient Church has been purposely expunged, minimized, or ignored. I think too many people confuse the roles of women in the home with that of the Church.

And there are many more examples. I find the book “When Women were Priests� by Karen Jo Torjesen - very informative as to the history of female leadership in the Church. Highly recommended. Also "The Lost Apostle." by Rena Pederson - (The search for Junia.) "I Suffer not a Woman." by Catherine Kroger

JesusReignsForever

Yes things have changed for todays women..but was it for the good for not? I am a women and I really wonder wether it was a good thing or a bad thing.

smellycat

women can,t preach in the church.this is Gods word.no if,s no buts but truth.

Jasher

Part Three
Our negative attitude toward women in the Church comes from two hard to understand passages from St. Paul. After much reading on the subject I have concluded that in both cases he was addressing local errors in the Church and was not making a general statement for all time. Here is the first of the two questionable passages.
(Read in a mocking, sarcastic voice.)
1 Cor. 14:34-37 (KJV) [34] “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.” [35] “And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”

The passage then continues… Loudly...and in a rage...
[36] What?came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? [37] If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

In 34 & 35 St. Paul is quoting the words of someone in the Church probably a "Judiazer," someone from the Circumcision Party, who opposed Paul at every turn - who in judging from the text - considered himself a prophet in that local body. In vs. 36 & 37 Paul is giving an angry response to the quote of 34 & 35. Obviously he limited his comments probably because he only wanted to correct this person - not destroy him.

The following is a quote from Dr. John Gustavson.

"Professor Sir William Ramsey, the most widely accepted authority on St. Paul in the early 1900's says "we should be ready to suspect Paul is making a quotation from the letter addressed to him by the Corinthians whenever he alludes to their knowledge, or when any statement stands in marked contrast either with the immediate context or with Paul's known views."Considering Paul's views on the ministries of Priscilla, Phoebe and others referred to earlier, it is clear that Paul believed in equality of women in ministry.

Moreover, ICor 14:34,35, if taken totally literally, cannot refer to the Old Testament Scriptures when speaking of the Law for there is not one trace from Genesis to Malachi of any such prohibition of women to literally keep silent in the church nor is there a single word in the whole "law of Moses" dealing with the subject. Therefore the words, "it is not permitted" and "as also saith the Law" roust refer to some "rule outside of Scripture." There was no other but the Oral Law of the Jews appealed to by the Judaizers in the church in their efforts at that time to bring Christianity back within the confines of Judaism.

The Jewish Oral Law did teach the silencing of women. The Talmud also taught that it was "a shame for a woman to let her voice be heard among men". However, the Oral Law of the Jews is not Scripture. Again, the reference to the "law" is, of itself, sufficient to show that the Apostle who labored so earnestly to free the Christian Church from the very shadow of Judaism was not expressing his own conviction in the language attributed to him. Paul never appealed to the "law" for the guidance of the Church of Christ, but, on the contrary, declared that believers were dead to the law by the body of Christ" (Ro 7:4) that they might serve in newness of spirit and not the oldness of the letter (v.6).)"

Some translations like the KJV and the Amplified Bible insert the word What! at the beginning of vs. 36. This is an expression of outrage at the previous verses or quotations (33-35). Verses 36 - 37 should be read with an element of anger. Verse 37 continues where he is upbrading someone who thought themselves to be a Prophet in the Church. Obviously the person he quoted in vs. 33-35. As Ramsey suggests, 1CO was probably written in response to a letter sent to him by the Corinthians.

In summary, because the quote was given in a Sarcastic tone, it simply means that the exact opposite was true because he was mimicking them and not making a statement.

Dr. John Gustavson's papers - part one and two on Women in the Church...

www.ncinter.net/~ejt/women1.htm

www.ncinter.net/~ejt/women2.htm

smellycat

maybe it is because women go with the flow,like job,s wife.if God says something then listen.maybe men are more equiped with understanding,or stubborness who knows ,but if God tells us then it is right.

InHisLove

I vote for stubbornness.

__________________
Look Forward And Progress!

Look Backward And Run Into Things!

smellycat

this might be our saving grace.