GordonSlocum

Sinners, as I see it, are free to willingly believe or not believe. Also, I do not see believing faith as a gift given specifically for the purpose to enable one to believe. I, instead, hold to the position that man is created in the image of God by which he inherently has the capability to trust and the trust, believing, faith is just there once an object is presented. Faith takes an object. Without the object even a special gift of faith is worthless. Now God gives a measure of faith to believers according to Romans 12. How should I understand that in terms of language? If faith takes an object to believe in - then the giving of faint is related to something else relevant to produce faith, and in this manner I would agree that what God said is meant accordingly. The question must be ask, "How does one give a measure of faith?" The only way I can reconcile it is if the expression, while not mentioned, includes some object to direct faith in. We know that Christ is our object of salvation. What then is the object of the measure of faith God gives to BELIEVERS, not un-believers. Romans 12:3 "as God has allotted to each a measure of faith." The context is speaking of gifts and believers are told it is their reasonable service.

I am a very solid dogmatic advocate that man has "FREE WILL" I am 1000 percent Plus anti TULIP

The point that faith takes an object supports "FREE WILL", as I see it.

To posit that "faith" is a special gift given to a select few whereby they are enabled to, at that time, be saved by them taking the special gift of faith and placing their gifted faith in Christ for salvation is not my view or position. Jesus repeatedly spoke of "your, theirs, his, her faith".


I hope that is not as muddy as the last post.

Gordon

PreciousMessage

Dear Gordon,

You stated, Also, I do not see believing faith as a gift given specifically for the purpose to enable one to believe.

You are very prophetic and have muddied the waters. What again do you mean that faith was not given for the specific purpose to believe? What was it given for?

Faith and believe is the same word in the Greek, pisits. They are interchangeable. Your statement is opposed to each other.

PreciousMessage

Hi Gordon,

You stated, Without the object even a special gift of faith is worthless.

A preacher of 60 books stated, "Selfishness would make a monopoly of eternal life. The Jewish nation thought to confine the benefits of salvation to their own nation; but the world's redeemer showed them that salvation is like the air we breathe, like the atmosphere that belongs to the whole world. Every soul is enriched by the love of God. The selfishness that would number Israel is an offense to God; for God's gift belongs not to a select few but to the whole world." End Quote.

Why do you regard yourself so highly? As if you are the "chosen one?" How do reach the down and out when you tell them that they are worthless without the object of faith? Where are you coming from dear brother?

A sinner saved by grace,

John

PreciousMessage

Hi Gordon,

If everyone has not been given the measure of faith, how do we come to Christ? By osmosis? IN CHRIST, everyone has been given the "FAITH OF JESUS." Without such, no one could come to Him. We do not come of ourselves. You do know that there is not one single thing within yourself that draws you to our Savior? God forbid!

What drew you to Christ, something within yourself or the "faith of Jesus?"

John

GordonSlocum

I am sorry I think you misunderstand what I am saying.

I do not see believing faith as a special gift from God

I see believing faith as something all mankind has from the fact that they are created in the image of God

The capacity to believe, have faith, trust, etc is apart of the make up of mankind and it is "activated" so to speak when it is presented with an object to believe in.

Christ is the object of salvation to all who believe in Him the object.

GordonSlocum

I think we are trying to say the same thing. I did not draw myself to God, Christ, etc. The Faith of Christ did not draw me either. Drawing is through one being convicted of a need and that need is revealed in the explanation of Grace, which is Christ.

44. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

32. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

2. even {the} righteousness of God through faith in
the object of faith is >>> Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
17. So faith {comes} fromhearing, and (The Object of Faith is) hearing by the word of Christ.

faith
–noun 1.confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability. 2.belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims. 3.belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty. 8.Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

30. and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31. They said, "Believe in (object of faith is >> the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

It does not say<> by the faith of Jesus <> believe in the Lord Jesus.

PreciousMessage

Hi Gordon,

Everything we have is a gift from God, therefore it is special. We have nothing of our own, certainly you understand this concept from the Bible. He gave you life, the body you are in, the air you breathe, and food. It's all a gift dear brother.

Who keeps your heart beating dear brother? That's why the cross has been active since the world began. For "the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8).

Regarding salvation brother, let's get into that: "Of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace" (John 1:16, NKJV). I find it interesting that "believers" think the Bible is only talking about them. The Bible is an amazing thing, it's the Word of God, speaking to anyone who reads it, regarding their supposed conversion. God speaks to everyone! His word is not exclusive, like many "believe."

The gospel proclaims a complete, unreserved, unconditional giving of Christ, and alll that is in Him, to humanity as a whole.

The Bible teaches that Jesus is "the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe" (1 Tim. 4:10). In the person of Christ is accomplished fact of salvation for the whole world (1 John 2:2, RSV). Said in a different way, in Christ is accomplished the fact of salvation for the whole world. By believing that reality, the salvation that is accomplished in Him becomes experientially activated in us.

We believe the fact; we don't make it. We embrace a salvation that is; we do not cause it to be dear brother. We receive by faith an achieved salvation; we do not create salvation by right doing. For example:

"in Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation" (Eph. 1:13).

But how can we hear about our salvation before we have believed? There is only one way, there must be something to believe before we can believe it, right? Salvation must be a real and existing truth that can be told to us prior to our "exercise of faith, it's the telling of that very truth that enables faith to be exercised.

How many things consist "in Christ?" Col. 1:17. All things. "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace" (Eph. 1:7).

Anything short of an accomplished salvation IN CHRIST for all mankind makes God the responder and us the initiators of our own salvation, with Him saving us in exchange for our good works.

May we be giving the people "good news" not "bad news."

blessings in Christ,
John

GordonSlocum

agree

agree

agree

agree

agree

(emphaisis added)

agree

agree



agree

Bless you too.

Gordon

PreciousMessage

Hi Gordon,

"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith OF Jesus, [not faith IN Jesus]. Paul makes that distinction for a reason.
The faith OF Jesus is Him living in the "likeness of sinful flesh" to condemn sin in the flesh. Romans 8:1-4.

In Christ, He is our justification, sanctification, and glorification. Christ lived by faith in His Father so that we could live by faith in Him. No one can come to Christ unless faith has been imparted. Going on, "for ALL have sinned ... being justified freely."

bless you,
John

GordonSlocum

I will have to respectfully disagree that faith is imparted for the purpose of believing.