Salvation - Page 6

Boanerges · 08-29-2007, 03:27 PM

Bridgit if you look thru the scriptures God is seen calling and convicting before judgement- we are repeatedly told not to " harden our hearts"- it is my personal opinion but I believe God works on all hearts but the ones who continually ignore Him simply cease to hear- but that is of course just my opinion- many blessings on your day- brother Larry

PreciousMessage · 08-29-2007, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GordonSlocum

For years I have heard the argument that foreknowledge did not see events but only the person.

24. For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he {already} sees?
25. But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
26. In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for {us} with groanings too deep for words;
27. and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to {the will of} God.
28. And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to {His} purpose.
29. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30. and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
31. What then shall we say to these things? If God {is} for us, who {is} against us?

(1) For those whom He foreknew He also predestined
(2) For those whom He foreknew He also called
(3) For those whom He foreknew He also justified
(4) For those whom He foreknew He also glorified

Who are the those? Verse 28 â€œthose who love Godâ€

For me I see the statement â€œthose whom He foreknewâ€ as referring back to â€œthose who love Godâ€ and in this case they are already saved.

The question for me is this. Of the whom He foreknew, â€œthose who love Godâ€ on what basis did He foreknow them?

It seems to me that the foreknowledge that points to the ones loving God precedes the four categories, (1) predestined; (2) elected or called; (3) justified; and (4) glorified.

Should we see â€œforeknowledge of the whomâ€ as co-equal in â€œhappeningâ€ or â€œexistenceâ€ as predestined, called / elected, justified, and glorified? Or should it be view as sequential?

While it is sequential in wording, for me, I see these four as a state of declaration, due to salvation at a given point in time, as if they all took place at one moment in time, understanding that the fourth has not, in time and space if I may, happened yet.

So, that gets us back to the question, â€œOn what basis is it that God foreknows the ones that love Him. On what basis does He foreknow believer?

Another thought follows with respect to predestined. Should predestined be the only qualifier of this statement, â€œ{to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;"?

First, notice that there are two statements, one referring to the predestined and second, so that He (Christ) would be the firstborn among many brethren.

Would you be inclined to believe or posit that the conforming to the image of His Son should only be related to predestined or would you use is at a qualifier for all four words, predestined, called / elected, justified, and glorified?

Yet, another twist is entertained . Verse 30 from the Greek states very latterly when translated in a word for word manner; â€œbut whom he foreordained, these also called, and whom called, these also justified, but whom justified these also glorified.

I will do a little role play here, I am going to be God.

I have foreordained / predetermined that the ones I love to be conformed to the image of my Son. These I have called , justified and glorified, (verse 24), when they hoped in Me, at which time I gave them new life. I first loved them and they hoped in Me therefore I saved them and gave them myself , indwelling and enabling them to love as I have loved them. It is these of whom I foreknow, those who love Me. I foreknew their obedience to the gospel, for it is on this basis that those whom I foreknew, the ones loving me, I predestined to be conformed to the image of my Son.

Is there any reason why this could not be logically correct?
Last and final for now, â€œOn what basis did God foreknow the ones loving Him? Do you believe I have adequately answered the question, or seriously and rightly divided the word of truth?

The apostle Paul is always in a continual transition, going from one thought to another. I dare not role play God, but I do dare to say that God knows everyone, if not He is a lier. Yes it is true that God foreknew those who love God, yet He also knows those who do not love Him.

He ordains peace for us. Isa. 26:12. We read nothing about men being foreordained to destruction; the only thing that God has predestinated is that men should be conformed to the image of his Son.

WE cannot see the full dimensions of how He views every sinner and justifies their very existence during this lifetime which all are shown the evidences of His gift of grace to them.

"Whom He called these He also justified" Rom.8:30.

Who does He justify? "for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God being JUSTIFIED FREELY by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:23,24).

All of mankind have sinned. And all of mankind are being Justified freely. All have been given a verdict of acquittal through the redemption of Christ.

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life" (Rom 5:18).

Pertaining to the above verse, a preacher of righteousness stated,

"Christ has tasted death for every man. He has given Himself for all. Nay, He has given Himself to every man. The free gift has come upon all. The fact that it is a free gift is evidence that there is no exception. If it came upon only those who have some special qualification, then it wold not be a free gift. It is a fact, therefore, plainly stated in the Bible, that the gift of righteousness and life in Christ has come to every man on earth. There is not the slightest reason why every man that has ever lived should not be saved unto eternal life, except that they would not have it. So many spurn the gift offered so freely." End Quote

That of course is objectively IN CHRIST. Now those who believe are JUSTIFIED BY FAITH.

That is the good news of the gospel.

blessings to you in Christ,
John

shawnmann · 08-30-2007, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boanerges

Shawnmann true faith will always produce good works- the following scripture puts both in proper context:
Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Of course we do not recieve salvation by our good works. We recieve it by faith. But if we do not do good works, then our faith is useless. What about the verses I quoted?

2 Peter 2:20
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

How can this be? Their first state was being a sinner bound for hell. Then they became a Christian (the only way to escape the defilements of the world, by being cleansed by the blood of Christ and sanctified by the Spirit) bound for heaven. How can their last state be worse? Because they rejected the new life provided for them by faith (by faith we are a new creation, not enslaved by sin, but holy and made for good works) and therefore rejected their new destination. Their last state is worse because when they were just an ignorant sinner they still had a chance at salvation. But now they have been offered salvation, accepted it, then rejected it through their lifestyle. Now they have no way into heaven. They made their choice.

Let me ask you a question. What group of people have been enlightened? What group of people have shared in the Holy Spirit? Have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the heavenly gift? Of course we are talking about Christians. How can anyone but those who have received the Holy Spirit be enlightened? For it is the Spirit who reveals the will of God and opens our minds to understand spiritual things. Now, keeping in mind that these qualities belong to Christians, read the next section from the letter written to the Hebrews.

Hebrews 6:
4For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

Hebrews 10
26For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Isreal does not enter in to the promises of God if they break the covenant. We are Spiritual Isreal. We are not bound to the old law but the better law. The Law of Christ. Let us be careful how we walk so that we may enter in.

Rev_Rick · 08-30-2007, 04:29 AM

Philemon 1:13-15
13 I wanted to keep him with me, so that in my imprisonment for the gospel he might serve me in your place. 14 But I didn't want to do anything without your consent, so that your good deed might not be out of obligation, but of your own free will. 15 For perhaps this is why he was separated [from you] for a brief time, so that you might get him back permanently,

In Him,
Rick

Boanerges · 08-30-2007, 01:43 PM

What about them brother- as stated true faith stirs the heart and produces faith- if one is truly in love with Jesus, if one follows his Lord with his whole life he s would never need be concerned with those two scriptures - I believe a person would have to delibrately, purposefully and consistantly walk away from God ignoring all conviction to achieve that state- such a person generally may have sampled christianity out of curiousity but never really had a heart for the Lord or His people or as the Apostle John put it:

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

it is God's desire to see us make it in His kingdom

Luk 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

And I can have absolute peace as I know my saviour has redeemed me:

1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

I don't find myself in a particular camp but I do find myself believing that as long as I trust in Him I will not fall- He is the basis of my salvation and in and on Him is all my hope- many blessings on your day- bother Larry

GordonSlocum · 08-31-2007, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shawnmann

Of course we do not recieve salvation by our good works. We recieve it by faith. But if we do not do good works, then our faith is useless. What about the verses I quoted?

2 Peter 2:20
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

How can this be? Their first state was being a sinner bound for hell. Then they became a Christian (the only way to escape the defilements of the world, by being cleansed by the blood of Christ and sanctified by the Spirit) bound for heaven. How can their last state be worse? Because they rejected the new life provided for them by faith (by faith we are a new creation, not enslaved by sin, but holy and made for good works) and therefore rejected their new destination. Their last state is worse because when they were just an ignorant sinner they still had a chance at salvation. But now they have been offered salvation, accepted it, then rejected it through their lifestyle. Now they have no way into heaven. They made their choice.

Let me ask you a question. What group of people have been enlightened? What group of people have shared in the Holy Spirit? Have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the heavenly gift? Of course we are talking about Christians. How can anyone but those who have received the Holy Spirit be enlightened? For it is the Spirit who reveals the will of God and opens our minds to understand spiritual things. Now, keeping in mind that these qualities belong to Christians, read the next section from the letter written to the Hebrews.

Hebrews 6:
4For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

Hebrews 10
26For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Isreal does not enter in to the promises of God if they break the covenant. We are Spiritual Isreal. We are not bound to the old law but the better law. The Law of Christ. Let us be careful how we walk so that we may enter in.

There are some interesting statement in this chapter, but let me draw everyone's attention to the last verse of the chapter.

39. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

Those being spoken of are those that "shrink back"

This section can only have one of two meaning in my humble opinion; (1) Christians have eternal security or (2) they don't.

The greater evidence is on the security side form my perspective.

PreciousMessage · 08-31-2007, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PreciousMessage

Amen,

"according to the good hand of his God upon him," Ezra had persuaded the king to make abundant provision for the return of all the people of Israel and of the priests and Levites in the Medo-Persian realm, who were minded "of their own free will to go up to Jerusalem." Ezra 7:9,13. Here again the children of the dispersion were given opportunity to return to the land with the possession of which were linked the promises to the house of Israel.

The context is very clear, they had a choice to return to the land linked with the promises. ....

free will, from the primitive root nadab = volunteer.

Young's Literal Translation says, "everyone who is willing"

Jewish Publication Society Bible says, "minded of their own free will to go"

Some may say, "Oh, but this is talking about freewill offerings." But, original is different, its ndabah. Such as Ezra 8:28, "a freewill offering.

If Ezra 7:13 was talking of an offering, the Bible would state "freewill offering" as in all the other verses that speak of offerings. But Ezra 7:13 does not. It really does not matter because the people could give freely and willingly. A forced offering is not of faith, but of works, anything not of faith is sin. It must come from the heart.

"For with the heart one believes unto righteousness"

John

As "born again" believers we want to be as open as the sunshine, yet I have not necessarily found this to be true on this forum. We have shown that everyone has a free will, but nobody is rejoicing in such great and glorious truth for those who are opposed to it. Do we not want to glory in the truth of the gospel? Certainly the hearts are not so hardened as to reject the clear sunshiny truth of "free will."

Why is that glorious? Because those in heaven have "freely" and "willingly" wanted to be in heaven. There will be no more rebellion, no more protest as Lucifer rebelled against heaven.

God's Kingdom will be those who have "freely willed" to be there. Therefore, heaven will be safe for all eternity! What a glorious picture!! No more sin! We parade ourselves about "GOOD WORKS." Yet we deny them, because we "despise" the idea we have been corrected and we do not repent of our false ideas.

About 7 years ago I was in a COMA for 32 days. Don't let ANYONE EVER TELL YOU that those in a coma are "brain dead." I had dream after dream after dream about God's love for mankind, and last day events. The nurses said that I was very irritated at times, yet when my wife came into the hospital room I would settle down immensely. That's the LOVE OF GOD!

I was given up for dead, no chance for recovery. A 70% chance of dying. I could not breath on my own. May we humble ourselves, and when truth comes along, let us not trivialize it as if it means nothing. Let's REJOICE! WHY DO WE DEFEND WHAT WE LEARNED SO LONG AGO AS IF TRUTH IS NOT PROGRESSIVE AS IN THE REFORMATION? Do you think the reformation "expired" 500 years ago, as if the Lord is not trying to give us NEW TRUTH that was lost for a 1000 years because of the inquisition? We need not hang on to truth at the time of the reformation, NOW! We can understand that the reformation is not a thing of a day, but a continual enlightenment of the mind as the years go on.

God bless you dear people in the name of Jesus,
John

John

GordonSlocum · 08-31-2007, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saint_Augustine

Who says God created us with free will? Could you please offer some Scriptural support regarding that assertion?

I don't think there is a specific statement, in Scripture, that is worded in such a way that it comes out an specifically says "free will" with direct reference to salvation. I do believe there are numerous inferences.

We exercise faith all the time. I see faith as an ability that I have as a result of being in the image of God. We have emotions, a will, and an intellect. While we inherit Adams sin nature, this did not eradicate our image, according to my understanding.

That being the case once I am confronted with God's Grace, the gospel of salvation, Christ dying on the cross for my sin, then I have an object in which to exercise faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10. One might ask, what is the object of your faith? Faith takes an object. In the case of salvation faith is possible when there is an object to trust, and if this is what is suggested in terms of faith as a special gift then I am OK with that. It is simply placing an object in the path of the mind in order to make the mind think and the will decide. God placed His Grace in our path.

Jesus repeatedly used the personal pronouns, your faith, their faith, his faith, her faith, and Paul did as well. Some suggest that believing faith is something that is given to only a few and no one else as a determined selection in eternity past. I don't ascribe to that view. I believe God's Absolute knowledge and his determined plan, IN CHRIST, elected me on the basis of his foreknowledge, foresight, prescience, etc.

Gordon

GordonSlocum · 08-31-2007, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PreciousMessage

Hi Larry,

That seems to be half good news, since I do not see the word "choice," involved in Romans 8:29. It does not say, "those that choose I desire to be conformed to the image of His Son." I like the whole good news of the pure gospel, that whom He foreknew, He has predestined "to be conformed to the image of His Son." Does God know all things and everyone? It takes away all mass traditional arguments of Armininianism and Calvinism. There is a better choice, not just the "offer" view, or the "special elect view," but the "free gift came to all men" (Rom. 5:18).

That's what the sin sick soul needs! Christ and Him Crucified for the sins of the whole world, not just for those certain elect. After all, He is indeed, the "Savior of All men."

John S.

An interesting observation I see in the Romans 8:24-30 is as follows:

Note that verse 24 states, "24. For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope for who hopes for what he {already} sees?

This being apart of the context, in my opinion, should be discussed in conjunction with the following verses.

Now, in verse 28 these words are to be noticed as well, 28. And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to {His} purpose.

Now, verse 29, and 30: 29. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30. and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Let me pull out several colored statements to make it easy to follow:

Verse 24:For in hope we have been saved

Verse 28: those who love God

Verse 29: those whom He foreknew

The antecedent of "foreknowledge" is "those who love God". In other words the "whom" of verse 29 points back to "those who love God" in verse 28.

As well, contextually, the "whom" of 29 and "those" of 28 are the "we" of 24.

So, what does all this mean? Good question

Foreknowledge in this verse refers to the ones that love God, (here it is) therefore, on what basis have the ones that "love God" come to love God? See verse 24. "Hope" A synonym of faith or trust in or believing in Christ.

God’s foreknowledge in this verse sees, or knows those that love him before they loved him, come to love him, after hope (new birth), where by they were saved, God first loved us, Grace.

While there isn’t a statement that says God foreknew one having faith the inferences and logical scriptural exegesis solidifies “free will” and that “foreknowledge” is, as Peter states, based upon “foreknowledge”. That is exciting to say the least.

PreciousMessage · 08-31-2007, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GordonSlocum

I don't think there is a specific statement, in Scripture, that is worded in such a way that it comes out an specifically says "free will" with direct reference to salvation. I do believe there are numerous inferences.

We exercise faith all the time. I see faith as an ability that I have as a result of being in the image of God. We have emotions, a will, and an intellect. While we inherit Adams sin nature, this did not eradicate our image, according to my understanding.

That being the case once I am confronted with God's Grace, the gospel of salvation, Christ dying on the cross for my sin, then I have an object in which to exercise faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10. One might ask, what is the object of your faith? Faith takes an object. In the case of salvation faith is possible when there is an object to trust, and if this is what is suggested in terms of faith as a special gift then I am OK with that. It is simply placing an object in the path of the mind in order to make the mind think and the will decide. God placed His Grace in our path.

Jesus repeatedly used the personal pronouns, your faith, their faith, his faith, her faith, and Paul did as well. Some suggest that believing faith is something that is given to only a few and no one else as a determined selection in eternity past. I don't ascribe to that view. I believe God's Absolute knowledge and his determined plan, IN CHRIST, elected me on the basis of his foreknowledge, foresight, prescience, etc.

Gordon

Hi Gordon,

I will ask some tough questions, but do not take it personally. You are a child of God, and I am no better but from the dirt of the earth.

You stated, "I don't think there is a specific statement, in Scripture, that is worded in such a way that it comes out an specifically says "free will" with direct reference to salvation."

There is also not one statement in the Bible that says "free will" is in contradiction to salvation. But the Bible does talk of "free will" without any exemption noted. We all have been given the measure of faith "personally" according to scripture. It must be personally ours, otherwise Christ has not given it to us, but the Bible says all have been given the measure of faith. Although, I do not understand what you mean by that point when it comes to free will. God does not force anyone to accept his precious gift. They must come willingly and freely.

Are you saying that sinners accept Christ unwillingly and unfreely?

Let me ask you, who has "free will?" You have stated no one has free will." But now you say no has has free will when it comes to salvation. You could not even acknowledge that people have "free will" of any kind. I hope it's not painful to do so. If you are so adamantly opposed to "free will" regarding salvation or in general, why does not Christ teach this?

Christ never, never says we do not have free will. But Jesus does say we do have FREE WILL according to scripture. Let's not "assume" a teaching that is not taught in the Word of God. As you say, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God," only. If Christ said, "We do not have free will when it comes to salvation," then so be it, but He never says that, but He does say we have "free will without any disclaimers.

blessings to you in Christ dear brother,
John

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