PreciousMessage

Dear Brother,

"God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:3, 4). There is a difference between "foreknowledge and predestination."

Of course He knows who will accept Him. But he is not a respecter of persons, He died for the whole world. He has predestined all to be conformed into the image of His Son, yet He has the foreknowledge of who will actually believe. In other words, God has "destined" all to be saved "previously," before time began, as we know it. Sadly, many will reject the good news of the gospel for another.

You are using those "brawling" words again. I forgive you dear brother, please forgive me. "Be ye kind, one to another, tenderhearted."

We need not make light that Jesus Christ is the "Savior of all men." We do not want to negate the cross and what He has accomplished for all men. It is only in the light of the cross that the unbelieving heart is melted into a believing one. We do not want to bybass his mercy and grace bestowed upon all men.

We breathe, live, and eat because of His cross. The message of the gospel is to all, not just some that feel they were chosen of God and too bad for the others.

"Look to Me, and be saved, ALL you ends of the earth!" Isa. 45:22. Not to be sarcastic brother, but I would have to be on another planet if this did not include me, hence it's a call to ALL.

John

shawnmann

James 2:14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

No.

2 Peter 2:20
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

How can this be? Their first state was being a sinner bound for hell. Then they became a Christian (the only way to escape the defilements of the world, by being cleansed by the blood of Christ and sanctified by the Spirit) bound for heaven. How can their last state be worse? Because they rejected the new life provided for them by faith (by faith we are a new creation, not enslaved by sin, but holy and made for good works) and therefore rejected their new destination. Their last state is worse because when they were just an ignorant sinner they still had a chance at salvation. But now they have been offered salvation, accepted it, then rejected it through their lifestyle. Now they have no way into heaven. They made their choice.

Hebrews 6:
4For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

Hebrews 10
26For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

daniel2macarius

Just a few scriptures speaking of free will,now if free will does not exist you will have to take this matter up with God and tell Him he got it wrong.


1:3 `If his offering is a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish; he shall offer it of his own free will at the door of the tabernacle of meeting before the Lord.(Lev 1:3)

19:5 `And if you offer a sacrifice of a peace offering to the Lord, you shall offer it of your own free will.(Lev 19:5)

22:19 `you shall offer of your own free will a male without blemish from the cattle(Lev 22:19)

22:29 And when you offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving to the Lord, offer it of your own free will.(Lev 22:29)

GordonSlocum

I find it odd for anyone to say Adam and Eve did not have free will to make a choice to eat or not to eat.

How is it that a real choice does not mean a free choice from a free moral agent.

To me the contradiction is to say choice is not choice - that makes absolutely no sense at all.

GordonSlocum

I drove my car to the gas station today to buy some gas. The attendant at the gas station commented on my horseless carriage by saying that the motorcar was very stylish. As I drove my automobile home others were out and about going here and there in their cars too.

I did not use the word "vehicle". Can you argue that a car, or horseless carriage, or motorcar is not a vehicle?

Gordon

GordonSlocum

I think most Christians agree that mankind is depraved. I don't think anyone would argue that what God said about us is not true, "no one is seeking Him".

I think most Christians agree that God seeks us.

So, God finds us and tells us about ourselves, and Himself. This truth is light. We are in darkness. Here we are in the sea of darkness and God shows his light.

The writer of John said, 11. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, {even} to those who believe in His name, 13. who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Some of His own that were said did not receive Him, did receive Him.

PreciousMessage

Amen,

"according to the good hand of his God upon him," Ezra had persuaded the king to make abundant provision for the return of all the people of Israel and of the priests and Levites in the Medo-Persian realm, who were minded "of their own free will to go up to Jerusalem." Ezra 7:9,13. Here again the children of the dispersion were given opportunity to return to the land with the possession of which were linked the promises to the house of Israel.

The context is very clear, they had a choice to return to the land linked with the promises. ....

free will, from the primitive root nadab = volunteer.

Young's Literal Translation says, "everyone who is willing"

Jewish Publication Society Bible says, "minded of their own free will to go"

Some may say, "Oh, but this is talking about freewill offerings." But, original is different, its ndabah. Such as Ezra 8:28, "a freewill offering.

If Ezra 7:13 was talking of an offering, the Bible would state "freewill offering" as in all the other verses that speak of offerings. But Ezra 7:13 does not. It really does not matter because the people could give freely and willingly. A forced offering is not of faith, but of works, anything not of faith is sin. It must come from the heart.

"For with the heart one believes unto righteousness"



John

GordonSlocum

For years I have heard the argument that foreknowledge did not see events but only the person.

24. For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he {already} sees?
25. But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
26. In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for {us} with groanings too deep for words;
27. and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to {the will of} God.
28. And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to {His} purpose.
29. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30. and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
31. What then shall we say to these things? If God {is} for us, who {is} against us?

(1) For those whom He foreknew He also predestined
(2) For those whom He foreknew He also called
(3) For those whom He foreknew He also justified
(4) For those whom He foreknew He also glorified

Who are the those? Verse 28 “those who love God�

For me I see the statement “those whom He foreknew� as referring back to “those who love God� and in this case they are already saved.

The question for me is this. Of the whom He foreknew, “those who love God� on what basis did He foreknow them?

It seems to me that the foreknowledge that points to the ones loving God precedes the four categories, (1) predestined; (2) elected or called; (3) justified; and (4) glorified.

Should we see “foreknowledge of the whom� as co-equal in “happening� or “existence� as predestined, called / elected, justified, and glorified? Or should it be view as sequential?

While it is sequential in wording, for me, I see these four as a state of declaration, due to salvation at a given point in time, as if they all took place at one moment in time, understanding that the fourth has not, in time and space if I may, happened yet.

So, that gets us back to the question, “On what basis is it that God foreknows the ones that love Him. On what basis does He foreknow believer?


Another thought follows with respect to predestined. Should predestined be the only qualifier of this statement, “{to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;"?

First, notice that there are two statements, one referring to the predestined and second, so that He (Christ) would be the firstborn among many brethren.

Would you be inclined to believe or posit that the conforming to the image of His Son should only be related to predestined or would you use is at a qualifier for all four words, predestined, called / elected, justified, and glorified?

Yet, another twist is entertained . Verse 30 from the Greek states very latterly when translated in a word for word manner; “but whom he foreordained, these also called, and whom called, these also justified, but whom justified these also glorified.

I will do a little role play here, I am going to be God.

I have foreordained / predetermined that the ones I love to be conformed to the image of my Son. These I have called , justified and glorified, (verse 24), when they hoped in Me, at which time I gave them new life. I first loved them and they hoped in Me therefore I saved them and gave them myself , indwelling and enabling them to love as I have loved them. It is these of whom I foreknow, those who love Me. I foreknew their obedience to the gospel, for it is on this basis that those whom I foreknew, the ones loving me, I predestined to be conformed to the image of my Son.

Is there any reason why this could not be logically correct?
Last and final for now, “On what basis did God foreknow the ones loving Him? Do you believe I have adequately answered the question, or seriously and rightly divided the word of truth?

Boanerges

Shawnmann true faith will always produce good works- the following scripture puts both in proper context:
Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Tit 3:8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

I think this says it all- we are saved by the love and grace of our God and good works should follow- many put the cart before the horse and thus the legalistic attitudes that serve only to put one in more bondage rather than the freedoms we have as a heratige in Jesus Christ- it is perhaps time to take God's Word to heart and not strive about the law but live the spirit of the text

Gal 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
Gal 4:2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Jasher

Jn 3:19
...Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

All trespass is in these divisions: Lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the prfde of life. If you love these things you will not be interested in seeing or having a relationship with God.