Saint_Augustine

No, it doesn't. I'd like some evidence that is the case.

That may be the case with some people, but I do not believe in free will because there is no evidence, Biblical or otherwise, that humans possess free will.

Wishful thinking.

Sorry. That does not, in any way, establish people have free will; that merely declares people have a choice, life or death, to obey God or to disobey Him. Choices do not imply free will; they merely imply choice. The main issue is what determines the choices that someone makes.

I have no idea what the relevance to posting that verse is.

Puppet

Thankfully, even that faith is a gift! God is so very good to us.

jubilee4774

I'm confused. Isn't free will the same as "choice"? We make a choice as to whether to obey God or not. Just like Adam and Eve made a choice to disobey.

Maybe you could tell me what you mean by "free will".
Here are some definitions I found:

from Wikipedia:

The principle of free will has religious, ethical, and scientific implications. For example, in the religious realm, free will may imply that an omnipotent divinity does not assert its power over individual will and choices.

From www.dictionary.com:

free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will.

From American Heritage Dictionary:

1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

Puppet

Jubillee,

Can you find any verses that say we have free will? I don't think there are any. Nevertheless, we all make choices daily.

When God awakens us spiritually, we choose spiritual life! Read Ephesians 2:8-10 again. Do you see how salvation is of God? He is mighty to save. We cannot do it. He gives us everything! He is so very good to us.

jubilee4774

Puppet,

I completly agree that we are saved by grace. That was not the issue I was bringing up.

To my knowledge there are no verses in the bible that say anything about free will. However, there are many verses where people made choices to disobey (and to obey) God. It seemed like we digressed into a discussion on semantics of free will vs. choice. The only point I was making is that it seems that they are the same thing . . .

violet

Puppet

There is a difference between free will and choice. They are not the same at all.

We do have a will, and that will makes choices. Daily, I decide many things: what to cook my family for dinner, what words I will use to say things, what to read or do. We are free to choose what we desire.

God never forces a person against their will. I have heard many say, "God is a gentleman". But that is not what I mean here. As humans, our natures determine our choices and our will.

When Saul was converted on the road to Damascus, God did not compel him to edify the church instead of persecuting it. He added a new factor of inward grace in his soul, consequently Paul changed his decision. God may renew the will but He never coerces it.

When one converts, we make a decision. I shy away from that term because in modern jargon a 'decision' has come to be identified with an outward expression, such as raising the hand or going forward to the front. While such external acts have nothing to do with forgiveness of sins, the heart must make a decision to be saved.

Man does have a will, it is not independent of all influences nor supreme over all other parts of his personality. Consider, for example, if I place two bowls in front of a hungry person, one filled with dirt, one filled with strawberries. You know which one he will choose, and so do I. Because he is hungry, he will choose the strawberries. That is a poor analogy of how God can cause us to choose what He wants for us. When the time is right, He will quicken or awake us spiritually, so that we choose Him.

Our natures determine our choices. A spiritually person dead in sin will always choose sin. A person whom God awakens spiritually will choose salvation.

Learning about church history will teach a lot, so does reading Augustine and Pelagius, Martin Luther and Erasmus, councils and creeds. Most of the councils had to be convened to deal with the heretics of the day. Because of them, we do not have to reinvent the wheel of the foundations for our faith.

The more I learn, the more I know I don't know.

violet

Puppet

Violet,

Before one is saved, are they completely free from God? Your definition of free will sounds as if that is what you think free will is. People are completely free from God and His influences?

If that is your understanding of free will, then God is not Sovereign and cannot control anything unbelievers do, which flies in the face of scripture. God uses unbelievers to achieve His will. He used Pharaoh, He used pagan nations and kings.

smellycat

God gives you his way,your free to choose .motives God knows us.thats why some will say i taught for you ,but if they teach for own gain without a pure heart they will not be worthy.