revlynn

Surely, if satan had been lying, Jesus would have been quick to point it out. And surely even satan would not have been brazen - and stupid - enough to offer God the Son something that was not his to give.

"Gospel" means "good news". It does not mean "kingdom." "Kingdom" means "rule," it does not mean "good news." If in saying "the Kingdom of heaven is at hand" Jesus meant that God was standing in front of them speaking to them, what did John the Baptist mean when he used the same words? Jesus was God in the flesh, but John wasn't.

It is impossible to read the Bible honestly without seeing that the world is divided into those who choose to live under the rule of God and those that choose to live under the rule of satan (or have been deceived into living under his rule.) Whether or not we want to describe the latter as a "true kingdom", Jesus referred to it as a kingdom and compared it to the Kingdom of God. If Jesus says it, that's good enough for me - I'll sort out the semantics when I get to heaven.

blessings,

Lynn

__________________
New Social Networking site for Australian Christians

Boanerges

Just some random thoughts-

Some things we have positionally, some experientialy. Positionally I am seated with Christ and yet experientialy I am still here on this earth.

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

The Kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Jesus kingdom is not of this world.
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

The Kingdoms of this world become the Kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ just prior to His return:

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever.

Satan has a kingdom :
Mat 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

Those who do not follow Christ walk in the footsteps of Adam and have indeed surrendered their authority or position (again like Adam) to the kingdom of darkness.

We indeed have authority and we can be used to build His kingdom but only at His direct leading and total dependence on Him will this be accomplished. We are Christ's hands, feet, ears, eyes, etc on this earth but He is the head and nothing done without the head commanding it has any eternal value.

__________________
Anything that dims my vision for Christ, or takes away my taste for Bible study, or cramps me in my prayer life, or makes Christian work difficult, is wrong for me; and I must, as a Christian turn away from it. – J. Wilbur Chapman

Kevin

Below are extracts from Vines Dictionary.

Kingdom
<1,,932,basileia>
is primarily an abstract noun, denoting "sovereignty, royal power, dominion," e.g., Rev_17:18, translated "(which) reigneth," lit., "hath a kingdom" (RV marg.); then, by metonymy, a concrete noun, denoting the territory or people over whom a king rules, e.g., Mat_4:8; Mar_3:24. It is used especially of the "kingdom" of God and of Christ.
"The Kingdom of God is (a) the sphere of God's rule, Psa_22:28; Psa_145:13; Dan_4:25; Luk_1:52; Rom_13:1-2. Since, however, this earth is the scene of universal rebellion against God, e.g., Luk_4:5-6; 1Jo_5:19; Rev_11:15-18, the "kingdom" of God is (b) the sphere in which, at any given time, His rule is acknowledged. God has not relinquished His sovereignty in the face of rebellion, demoniac and human, but has declared His purpose to establish it, Dan_2:44; Dan_7:14; 1Co_15:24-25. Meantime, seeking willing obedience, He gave His law to a nation and appointed kings to administer His "kingdom" over it, 1Ch_28:5. Israel, however, though declaring still a nominal allegiance shared in the common rebellion, Isa_1:2-4, and, after they had rejected the Son of God, Joh_1:11 (cp. Mat_21:33-43), were "cast away," Rom_11:15, Rom_11:20, Rom_11:25. Henceforth God calls upon men everywhere, without distinction of race or nationality, to submit voluntarily to His rule. Thus the "kingdom" is said to be "in mystery" now, Mar_4:11, that is, it does not come within the range of the natural powers of observation, Luk_17:20, but is spiritually discerned, Joh_3:3 (cp. 1Co_2:14). When, hereafter, God asserts His rule universally, then the "kingdom" will be in glory, that is, it will be manifest to all; cp. Mat_25:31-34; Phi_2:9-11; 2Ti_4:1, 2Ti_4:18.
"Thus, speaking generally, references to the Kingdom fall into two classes, the first, in which it is viewed as present and involving suffering for those who enter it, 2Th_1:5; the second, in which it is viewed as future and is associated with reward, Mat_25:34, and glory, Mat_13:43. See also Act_14:22.
"The fundamental principle of the Kingdom is declared in the words of the Lord spoken in the midst of a company of Pharisees, "the Kingdom of God is in the midst of you," Luk_17:21, marg., that is, where the King is, there is the Kingdom. Thus at the present time and so far as this earth is concerned, where the King is and where His rule is acknowledged, is, first, in the heart of the individual believer, Act_4:19; Eph_3:17; 1Pe_3:15; and then in the churches of God, 1Co_12:3, 1Co_12:5, 1Co_12:11; 1Co_14:37; cp. Col_1:27, where for "in" read "among."
"Now, the King and His rule being refused, those who enter the Kingdom of God are brought into conflict with all who disown its allegiance, as well as with the desire for ease, and the dislike of suffering and unpopularity, natural to all. On the other hand, subjects of the Kingdom are the objects of the care of God, Mat_6:33, and of the rejected King, Heb_13:5.
"Entrance into the Kingdom of God is by the new birth, Mat_18:3; Joh_3:5, for nothing that a man may be by nature, or can attain to by any form of self-culture, avails in the spiritual realm. And as the new nature, received in the new birth, is made evident by obedience, it is further said that only such as do the will of God shall enter into His Kingdom, Mat_7:21, where, however, the context shows that the reference is to the future, as in 2Pe_1:10-11. Cp. also 1Co_6:9-10; Gal_5:21; Eph_5:5.
"The expression 'Kingdom of God' occurs four times in Matthew, 'Kingdom of the Heavens' usually taking its place. The latter (cp. Dan_4:26) does not occur elsewhere in NT, but see 2Ti_4:18, "His heavenly Kingdom." ... This Kingdom is identical with the Kingdom of the Father (cp. Mat_26:29 with Mar_14:25), and with the Kingdom of the Son (cp. Luk_22:30). Thus there is but one Kingdom, variously described: of the Son of Man, Mat_13:41; of Jesus, Rev_1:9; of Christ Jesus, 2Ti_4:1; "of Christ and God," Eph_5:5; "of our Lord, and of His Christ," Rev_11:15; "of our Lord, and of His Christ," Rev_11:15; "of our God, and the authority of His Christ," Rev_12:10; "of the Son of His love," Col_1:13.
"Concerning the future, the Lord taught His disciples to pray, "Thy Kingdom come," Mat_6:10, where the verb is in the point tense, precluding the notion of gradual progress and development, and implying a sudden catastrophe as declared in 2Th_2:8.
"Concerning the present, that a man is of the Kingdom of God is not shown in the punctilious observance of ordinances, which are external and material, but in the deeper matters of the heart, which are spiritual and essential, viz., 'righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit,' Rom_14:17." * [* From Notes on Thessalonians by Hogg and Vine, pp. 68-70.]
"With regard to the expressions "the Kingdom of God" and the "Kingdom of the Heavens," while they are often used interchangeably, it does not follow that in every case they mean exactly the same and are quite identical.
"The Apostle Paul often speaks of the Kingdom of God, not dispensationally but morally, e.g., in Rom_14:17; 1Co_4:20, but never so of the Kingdom of Heaven. 'God' is not the equivalent of 'the heavens.' He is everywhere and above all dispensations, whereas 'the heavens' are distinguished from the earth, until the Kingdom comes in judgment and power and glory (Rev_11:15, RV) when rule in heaven and on earth will be one.
"While, then, the sphere of the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are at times identical, yet the one term cannot be used indiscriminately for the other. In the 'Kingdom of Heaven' (32 times in Matt.), heaven is in antithesis to earth, and the phrase is limited to the Kingdom in its earthly aspect for the time being, and is used only dispensationally and in connection with Israel. In the 'Kingdom of God', in its broader aspect, God is in antithesis to 'man' or 'the world,' and the term signifies the entire sphere of God's rule and action in relation to the world. It has a moral and spiritual force and is a general term for the Kingdom at any time. The Kingdom of Heaven is always the Kingdom of God, but the Kingdom of God is not limited to the Kingdom of Heaven, until in their final form, they become identical; e.g., Rev_11:15, RV; Joh_3:5; Rev_12:10." (An Extract).

__________________
Isa 9:6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Kevin

Thanks Lynn,

Satan used the same tactics on Jesus as he did on adam and eve. He lied!

Sorry maybe I was not clear, when I meant kingdom can mean the gospel, I meant it in the context of the scripture when Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is at hand, this can mean the gospel (good news) is at hand.

I do not think we will ever truely understand Gods kingdom until we actually see all things as He does (if that is possible). This is probably one of the reasons Jesus described it in parables.

The reason I originaly started this thread was to dig a bit deeper into dominion theologies which are creeping into many churches today, and one of the issues they have is their understanding of the kingdom of God.

All I know from the Bible is that Gods authority is over all things. God rules over the earth just as He does over the spiritual, therefore all rulers (kingdoms) are actually under Gods authority, therefore in effect there is only one true kingdom, one true ruler, and that is the Kingdom of God. God allows evil to co-exist with good (parable of the wheat and the tares) up to a point and when Gods kingdom comes to fulfillment then evil and righteousness will be separated for ever.

__________________
Isa 9:6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

revlynn

Sorry, Kevin, but I simply do not believe that Jesus, God in the flesh, would be stupid enough to believe a lie. Do you?

Nor do I believe that satan would be stupid enough to lie to Him. When satan said that the kingdoms of this world were his to give, he was telling the truth.

When God created mankind, He placed our original parents on earth with a mandate to "fill the earth, subdue it and rule over it." (Genesis 1:28) In other words, He set them as His vice-regents on earth. When satan deceived them into obeying him rather than God, they effectively handed that rulership to him. The world became, as it were, a rebel state within the overarching Kingdom of God. Your quote from Vine refers to the Kingodm of God as "the sphere of God's rule." That being the case, then surely the "sphere of satan's rule" can be referred to as the kingdom of satan. Can you really deny that satan rules over the hearts and minds of a vast number of people in this world, and has done so throughout history?

What Jesus did at the Cross, far beyond simply achieving our salvation, was to reclaim this world as part of the kingdom of God. Hence Colossians 2:15 - "Having disarmed principalities and powers He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing ove them by the cross." The picture is that of a Roman triumph, where the conquering general would ride into town with the princes of the countries he had overthrown, stripped and chained to his chariot wheels, so that everyone could see that he had defeated them.

Let me say very clearly that I believe that God is the ultimate and absolute sovereign, and in the long run it is His will that will be done. However, he has given us free will and the right to choose whose rule we will live under.

Jesus spoke about two kingdoms. For me, that settles it: There are two kingdoms. There are those who choose to live under the rule of God, and those who choose to live under the rule of satan (or, as I said in my earlier post, are deceived into living under it.)

Jesus also spoke of those who were "sons of the devil" (John 8:42-47) and "sons of the evil one". (Matt 13:38-38 - "He answered, 'The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the Kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one.' ")

You say "dominion theologies" are "creeping into many churches today." Perhaps it is because some people are finally seeing what the Bible has said all along.

It is obvious we are not going to agree on this. Therefore I will not be responding again in this thread.

blessings,

Lynn

__________________
New Social Networking site for Australian Christians

Ramsey

I agree.
It's all explained in the Bible.

__________________
The Lord is my Shepherd; I shall not want. (Psalm 23:1)
Our God is the only Good
Grace, Peace and Safety to you all my brothers and sisters

Boanerges

MODERATOR'S COMMENT:

This thread has been well discussed . Everyone has stated their views and no one is changing their minds.

With that in mind, it is the opinion of the Moderators, nothing further is to be gained and the thread will be closed.

If anyone wishes to add something to this thread that is of a differing viewpoint and has not already been covered, please let anyone on the Moderator Team know, and reopening of this thread will be considered.

We thank all who participated.

__________________
Anything that dims my vision for Christ, or takes away my taste for Bible study, or cramps me in my prayer life, or makes Christian work difficult, is wrong for me; and I must, as a Christian turn away from it. – J. Wilbur Chapman