Matthew 16:18

Spencer80 · 07-06-2008, 04:00 AM

All right here is a little discussion that Who Am I and myself started up in a different thread. I moved it over here just to make it less distracting to the other main topic of said thread. So here is what we said in that thread, and let us begin. We of course are talking about the "Apostlistic (sp?) Succession" and the papacy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spencer80

The Pope. Matthew 16:18.

Don't give me bullcrap about how Peter's name means rock and that Jesus meant you are Peter. Look at the original greek translation, Jesus meant ROCK. He was the foundation of the Church, and there has been an constant line of Popes from Benedict XVI to Peter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Who am I

Jesus Christ himself is the chief corner stone.
Jesus was and is the foundation of the Church, (the body of Christ. All believers), not Peter.
“… and upon this rock I will build my church…”
Jesus was talking about himself. He is the chief cornerstone, is he not? That’s what is built upon, is it not?

Here is the PM I sent:

Quote:

Hey just wanted to bring this discussion out of the thread so no one else needs to get involved in this off topic discussion!

So hey first let's look here:
Quote:
And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Now first, I'm sure you are aware of the similarities between Peter and "rock" in Greek, yes? Peter is pronounced "petros" while rock is pronounced "petra". Now this is where it gets all funny, in the translation.

For ease and simplicities sake, check this quote out:

Quote:
Some argue that in this passage there is a minor difference between the Greek term for Peter (Petros) and the term for rock (petra), yet they ignore the obvious explanation: petra, a feminine noun, has simply been modifed to have a masculine ending, since one would not refer to a man (Peter) as feminine. The change in the gender is purely for stylistic reasons.

These critics also neglect the fact that Jesus spoke Aramaic, and, as John 1:42 tells us, in everyday life he actually referred to Peter as Kepha or Cephas (depending on how it is transliterated). It is that term which is then translated into Greek as petros. Thus, what Jesus actually said to Peter in Aramaic was: "You are Kepha and on this very kepha I will build my Church."
But also, don't forget the proceeding verse. Here Jesus is directly speaking to Peter and said the big word: And. This means that he has given him something else right? What could he have given him BUT the rock.

Quote:
Mat 16:18
And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19
And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
Another thing, why would he even mention Peter if he were not to say something directly to him. Again, he previously said how Blessed and full of knowledge Peter was, why would Jesus say something to Peter that he already knew?

Any thoughts?

Now to start things off, I am not trying to convince anybody or be "the right person". I'm trying to discuss and see if we can all come to the Truth in one way or another!

Spencer80 · 07-06-2008, 04:07 AM

Also remember that Peter was first called Simon! Jesus was the one who called Simon, Peter!

Adstar · 07-06-2008, 02:35 PM

There was never any biblical indication that peter would have any successors.

Once Peter "lead by the Holy Spirit" had given the inspired Word of God that Jesus said the Helper would give them. Then it would be the Word itself that would lead the followers of Jesus.

And so it has been.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Jon-Marc · 07-06-2008, 06:49 PM

Personally, I don't believe that Jesus was referring to Peter when he said "Upon this rock I will build my church", but He was referring to Himself as THIS rock. I believe that had he meant Peter, He would have said, "Upon you, Peter, I would build my church." Why would God build His church upon a fallible and sinful man and not upon an infallible and perfect Man? That would be like building a house upon sand.

justthefacts · 07-06-2008, 07:39 PM

Interesting topic.

First of all, Jesus is the "cheif" corner stone, the rock of our salvation, but He was perferring directly to Peter when He stated that "upon this rock".

One must understand that Petra is derived from the greek word Petros, which means "a peice of a rock" but can also in name form mean Peter and even be implied "apostle".

It depends on how the word is used in the contex of the subject it is being applied to.

Actualy, everyone is overlooking the reason that Jesus stated this to begin with.

When Jesus asked the deciples (whom He had been teaching and instructing for quite some time), who do you say that I am, it was Peter that spoke as one informed from above, and as the Lord revealed, He could have only stated this (as one endowed with understanding), through the power of then Holy Spirit.

This was the sign that the deciples were now able to learn through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and this is what the Lord was signifing when He stated: blessed are you Peter (because you heard the voice of the Holy Spirit), and upon this "rock - foundation", I will build.

The keys of David refer to the ability to understand spiritual knowledge as the scriptures are "not" ment to be understood by the carnal minded man.

David prayed that God would teach him the ways of righteousness through then law of understanding so that he could walk before God and not be cast away.

Therefore, the beginning of the age of grace as to where any person can receive instruction and understanding threw the direct contact of the Holy Spirit.

This direct connection between man and the Holy Spirit had to be established before the church age could be born, and this through the direct actions of God.

I hope that helps

JTF

Boanerges · 07-07-2008, 12:33 AM

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