Kind of confused, need a little clarification - Page 2

Boanerges · 04-14-2008, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aelita

Actually, when Catholics pray to Saints it's because we believe they ARE in Heaven, not in Purgatory.

Also, I firmly believe in purgatory, and that there is biblical evidence for it.

For those of you who don't know what Purgatory is, it's a place where the souls of those who have died in the state of grace, but with venial sins or reparation due for forgiven sins are fully cleansed in Purgatory in order that they be made perfect for Heaven, all self-love is purged so that only love of God remains.

Biblical Evidence
Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or the age to come.

This would seem that some sins can be forgiven in the next world. But there is no sin to be forgiven in heaven, and sins cannot be forgiven in hell. So anyone remission of sin in the next world must be in Purgatory.

1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

This can't be referring to eternal loss in hell, because no one there can be saved. It can't be in heaven because there is no suffering in heaven. So it must be a middle state then, where the soul temporarily suffers loss so that it may gain heaven.

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the un-righteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building f the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.

1 Peter 4:6 For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead, that though judged in the flesh like men, they might live in the spirit like God.

So, those verses talk about a prison for disobedient spirits, and yet they were saved when Jesus preached to them. This is not hell, because no one is saved from hell. It's probably not "Abraham's bosom" where the righteous souls of the OT waited until Christ opened the gates of heaven because this is a place for disobedient spirits. It doesn't exactly sound like St. Peter is describing the waiting place of such righteous OT saints like David and John the Baptist when he mentions the disobedient spirits.

St. Peter is describing a temporary state for disobedient souls who were eventually saved. At the very least, it proves that a third place can exist between heaven and hell. At the very most, it proves the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory.

There is absolutely no connection between those scriptures and a mythical purgatory. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in the age to come which is Christ reign on earth. The burning of works not instituted and empowered by the Holy Spirit is at the judgment seat when Christ returns,the gospel was preached to those who died before Jesus Christ went to the cross and payed the price for sin- they where in a holding place called Abraham's Bosom awaiting redemption. Our redemption is paid in full at the cross, whether our works are rewarded has nothing at all to do with our salvation as:
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

No amount of money can be paid (indulgences ) no other price but the shed blood of Jesus Christ can make us acceptable to the Father. Anything else is a complete contradiction to scripture and these things were indeed made up to extort money from and control poor people.

Boanerges · 04-14-2008, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smellycat

depends on which bible you read and how much it is pallatable for you.

If you add the apocryphal books you will always be confused by the contradictions they introduce.

smellycat · 04-14-2008, 06:59 PM

if people mis interpret the original,it becomes a copy,we know satan is this.

da_man · 04-14-2008, 06:59 PM

If I remember right Jesus said "No one comes to the Father except through Me."
Maybe He was wrong to sacrifice His perfect life on the cross for our sins and we will get a second chance when we go into purgatory.

Aelita · 04-14-2008, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by da_man

If I remember right Jesus said "No one comes to the Father except through Me."
Maybe He was wrong to sacrifice His perfect life on the cross for our sins and we will get a second chance when we go into purgatory.

Catholics do not believe that Purgatory is a "Second Chance." Purgatory is only a place where we are purged and made perfect for heaven.

da_man · 04-14-2008, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aelita

Catholics do not believe that Purgatory is a "Second Chance." Purgatory is only a place where we are purged and made perfect for heaven.

Didn't Christ do that when He died for our sins?? I thought when He was on the cross He said it is finished.

LOTRgeek · 04-14-2008, 09:21 PM

C.S. Lewis had some interesting thoughts on Purgatory:

The right view returns magnificently in Newman's DREAM. There, if I remember it rightly, the saved soul, at the very foot of the throne, begs to be taken away and cleansed. It cannot bear for a moment longer 'With its darkness to affront that light'. Religion has claimed Purgatory.

Our souls demand Purgatory, don't they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, 'It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy'? Should we not reply, 'With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I'd rather be cleaned first.' 'It may hurt, you know' - 'Even so, sir.'

I assume that the process of purification will normally involve suffering. Partly from tradition; partly because most real good that has been done me in this life has involved it. But I don't think the suffering is the purpose of the purgation. I can well believe that people neither much worse nor much better than I will suffer less than I or more. . . . The treatment given will be the one required, whether it hurts little or much.

My favourite image on this matter comes from the dentist's chair. I hope that when the tooth of life is drawn and I am 'coming round',' a voice will say, 'Rinse your mouth out with this.' This will be Purgatory. The rinsing may take longer than I can now imagine. The taste of this may be more fiery and astringent than my present sensibility could endure. But . . . it will [not] be disgusting and unhallowed."

- C.S. Lewis, Letters To Malcolm: Chiefly on Prayer, chapter 20, paragraphs 7-10, pages 108-109

I have always thought of Purgatory as completely compatible with and necessary for God's justice, which is infinite. We have been saved by grace!! It is a gift of God, and not our own doing!! God did not have to die on the cross, He did it freely. But we must also pay the price for our own offenses. Each time we sin, we inflict more pain upon Our Lord. We deserve a punishment of our own. Our Lord shouldn't have taken all of our punishments away. Indeed, if He had, we would have no suffering or pain in this world. But St. Paul tells us that it is good and profitable. "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church..." (Colossians 1:24). Now, of course nothing was lacking in Christ's suffering. So what else can that mean? I believe that we have not received the infinite merits of Christ because we are not yet in total union with Him. He gave us His grace by His death, but we must earn His grace. Sin is the absence of God's goodness, and God will not reward us for sin. For though God is infinitely merciful...He is also infinitely just.

Boanerges · 04-14-2008, 09:39 PM

Abraham's bosom was the place old testament saints waited for God's provision through Jesus Christ the Lamb of God. Jesus Christ made the only provision that can make us acceptable in God's eyes. He has become our righteousness and our sanctifaction and there is not a single scriptural indication that there is any need for works to make myself holy (which I could never do according to the Word of God) after I die.

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

That fact that this ( Abraham's Bosom) is no longer necessary is demonstrated in the Word's of the great Apostle:

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

If we had to work, suffer or whatever it is you imagine that we could do to make ourselves good enough to be with God no man would ever enter His presence.
Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Jesus Himself is my righteousness and that is how I can boldly approach God:
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

If Christ paid the price I could not pay why would I deceive myself into thinking I can make myself worthy now?
The Church at Galatia made much the same error thinking they could please God by obeying rules and becoming acceptable in their own strength. Jesus Christ is either our Saviour in every detail or He is not our Saviour at all. What part of paying for your sins completely on the cross did He fail in? The answer is of course none.

smellycat · 04-14-2008, 09:47 PM

but if you read Jesus he does not tell you sinning is good.the woman who was to be stoned was left with Jesus and he said i forgive you but change your ways.Jesus wiped away her sins but told her to change her ways.

Boanerges · 04-14-2008, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smellycat

but if you read Jesus he does not tell you sinning is good.the woman who was to be stoned was left with Jesus and he said i forgive you but change your ways.Jesus wiped away her sins but told her to change her ways.

While that is entirely true Mike you still cannot and never will be able to please God or make yourself acceptable to Him any other way than to be found in Christ. As we are found in Christ His Holy Spirit works in us leading and guiding us in all truth, convicting us of sin and leading us deeper into our walk with Jesus. One thing to remember is this Jesus ministered to the Jews and the lost. The Church was not born until He payed the price for sin and the Holy Spirit was poured out. We are given the Epistles as God love letter and instruction to His bride.

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